A health care bill was passed by a divided House tonight which both supporters and opponents call historic in its sweep.
CNN reports that President Obama won a historic victory in the struggle for health care reform Sunday as the House of Representatives passed a sweeping bill overhauling the American medical system.
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62 Responses to House Passes Health Care Bill On 219-212 Vote
This is a sad day for the Country!
They passed a Health Care Bill that most Americans didn’t want and passed it in a way that was so sneaky and disingenuous that most people are disgusted. More importantly this Bill will do nothing but cost people more for their Health Insurance, cost more in Individual and Business Taxes and put 16 million people on Medicaid. It will lower the reimbursement to doctors for Medicare and Medicaid payments causing as much as 25% of doctors to stop taking Medicare and Medicaid payments which will make the wait to see a doctor months instead of weeks!
The most upsetting part to me is that the IRS will now be in charge of monitoring your Health Insurance Payments. They are going to hire 16,500 new Agents to look at your tax records and make sure that you are making your mandated Health Insurance payments every month and if you don’t they will be issuing and collecting your fine! Do you really want the IRS having your medical info and implementing these fines?
For full disclosure, my husband and I are in the Health and Life Insurance Business. We are a Broker and this Bill would be great for our business in the short term. We want change in the Health Care Industry but it has to be change that helps and benefits the People, not hurts them! Since there is no “public option” , the Bill would give 75 Billion to the Health Insurance Companies and unless you qualify for Medicaid you would have to purchase your insurance from one of the Insurance Companies. In 6 months the mandate for “guaranteed issue” will go into effect and then the rates will become so ridiculously high that most people will not be able to afford them! If you have Group Insurance from your Employer, you will probably lose that because it will be cheaper for your Employer to pay the fine!
Like I said, this is a very sad day for the Country!
I was glad to see it passed; it’s not perfect but I think a perfect bill didn’t exist and wouldn’t get passed if it did.
I’ve been very distressed to see the ugly behavior that those opposed to the bill have indulged in this past week:
Racist and homophobic epithets were hurled at Congresspersons, who were also spat on by Tea Party protestors:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/20/tea-party-protests-nier-f_n_507116.html
A man with Parkinson’s disease who sat down outside a Congresswoman’s office in Ohio to support the bill was verbally abused by Tea Party protestors, one of whom also threw dollar bills at the man:
http://tpmlivewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/03/identity-of-tea-partier-who-lashed-out-at-disabled-man-still-unknown.php
And we have the lovely Rep. Randy Neugerbauer of Texas, who screamed “baby-killer” at anti-abortion Rep. Bart Stupak on the floor of Congress last night: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ynews/ynews_ts1298
I do understand that this is a charged issue for many, but the hysteria and anger in some quarters needs to be tempered by cooler heads; instead it seems that it is whipped up at every opportunity. Threats of armed rebellion are treasonous, and not the acts of people who can claim any sort of true patriotism whatsoever.
I understand what you are saying Jennie. specifically the behavior of the tea party members who were harassing and behaving in a completely unacceptable manner, but that isn’t typical. It isn’t the norm , its the exception. Sad though that these are the things remembered about the group. They have every right to speak out- peacefully. I hope the radical reactions stop. Unfortunately they are in every group.
I’m not sure how much it matters but Rep. Neugerbauer has stated today that he wasn’t calling Stupak a baby killer- he said his quote was “it’sa baby killer” meaning the bill, not Stupak.
I agree that the actions of a tiny minority of “ignorant” people using racial or homophobic slurs should not be tolerated and action should be taken against those people. Think of all the people who had “baby killer” bumperstickers on their cars when Bush was President, or the protesters shouting “murderer” at the anti-war protests. (This is not a defense of him) just an example of how both sides have extremists who do not represent the majority.
I think the behavior of Nancy Pelosi, Rahm Emmanuel, Steny Hoyer and many others in the Congress was just as offensive and hurts the Country more than a few crazies at a Tea Party. These politicians ignored the will of the People, they used every sneaky trick in the book, they used bribes and made deals just to get the Bill passed. Now with reconciliation who knows what else will be in the Bill. To pass a Bill just to say “we passed it” makes no sense and is unbelievably arrogant to think you know more than the People. The whole process has been a disgrace and if you really read the Bill that is online now (and it is alot to read and comprehend) you will see it does not provide better Health Care for anyone.
I’m not sure how much it matters but Rep. Neugerbauer has stated today that he wasn’t calling Stupak a baby killer- he said his quote was “it’sa baby killer” meaning the bill, not Stupak.
I really don’t understand that though – maybe it’s just that the relationship between the bill and the issue of abortion has become so tortured. The objections are to federal funds being used for abortions, right? Abortion is legal, so it seems to me that the subtext is universal health care will allow some women who want abortions to get them when they might not otherwise have? Even if they aren’t being paid for by federal funds? Or am I missing something?
Incidentally, health care reform in Massachusetts appears to have led to a reduction in the number of abortions there:
http://www.politicsdaily.com/2010/03/18/massachusetts-study-health-care-reform-could-reduce-abortions/
And of course there’s the whole issue of those who object to paying for universal health care coverage – which would provide some with desperately needed pre- and post-natal care – but still shriek about protecting the unborn. I know that not all abortion opponents stop caring about babies once they are actually born, but hypocrites like these do not help the image of the anti-abortion movement.
As for whether the bigots and zealots represent a small minority – I don’t know. These stories are not hard to find. Maybe not all of them spitting on people, abusing them and shouting the n-word, but certainly the hysterical claims about socialism and other irresponsible bull. The more reasonable members of the Republican party really have a responsibility to disavow extremist behavior. But they don’t. I’ll be you anything Rep. Neugebauer gets a spike in contributions.
Holly, you can talk about the “will of the people” all you want, but it’s no monolithic thing. Support for reform varies depending on how the questions surrounding it are framed; certainly, nonsense about “death panels” and other Republican scare tactics have had some influence, but even so there are plenty of people happy today.
Jennie,
When I talk about the “will of the People” I am referring to an overwhelming majority of the Country. Look at all the polls from Pew, to Rasmussen, to NPR, even CNN (obviously a fairly liberal network) has the Poll results for March 19-21 at 59% oppossed to the Bill and 39% for the Bill with 2% that don’t care. What really is showing up in this conversation is the intolerance of others who do not agree with this Health Care Bill. When asked about individual Health Care issues, almost everyone agrees that no one should be refused Health Insurance because of “pre-existing conditions. Everyone agrees that “no one should be kicked off of their Health Insurance Plan because they develop a serious or life-threatening condition. Everyone believes that there should be Health Insurance for those who cannot afford it. Most people want some type of Tort Reform so that lawyers cannot engage in these Class Action Lawsuits based on “junk science” that make the Attorneys rich and drive the costs of medical malpractice through the roof. What people don’t agree with is the fact that they don’t even know what is truly in the Bill. That the costs is going to financially ruin the Country. That the Congress has special deals to “bribe ” their members to vote for this Bill because none of these people have the courage of their convictions. That they are going to lose Medicare Benefits and Medicare doctors that they desperately need. That their Individual and Group Health Insurance Premiums are going to skyrocket. Those are just a few of their concerns.
What I really resent is that just because people are not in favor of this particular Bill they are being painted as a bunch of Tea Party, uneducated, uncaring, ill-informed people. Most of the people against this Bill are against it for one reason. Not because they fear Socialism, or they believe in Death Panels, or they want the President to fail, because it is financially irresponsible and will bankrupt the Country.
The more reasonable members of the Republican party really have a responsibility to disavow extremist behavior.
Like Code Pink, boy they were scolded !
Obviously, this is a complex topic and I want to give it more thought before I post further.
Just a quick comment, however. Stu, I am a Democrat and I cannot stand Code Pink. They are disrespectful and do nothing positive to advance some of their goals I do agree with. The ends do not justify the means. I think the extremes on both sides of the political spectrum do not appreciate this.
Anya,
That’s all my post was for. Every side has idiots. To continue to bring them up to show you are “Better” or “Far Superior” is intellectual dishonesty and doesn’t promote useful dialog.
What really is showing up in this conversation is the intolerance of others who do not agree with this Health Care Bill.
How so?
What I really resent is that just because people are not in favor of this particular Bill they are being painted as a bunch of Tea Party, uneducated, uncaring, ill-informed people.
No, that’s not the case. I brought up behavior that I have been disturbed by. It’s not been isolated incidents – I’m not saying that it’s the behavior of the majority of those who oppose the bill. But it’s disingenuous to keep insisting that it’s a few fringe nutjobs.
I do think outright stating as fact that the cost of the bill is going to financially ruin the country is hyperbole.
Like Code Pink, boy they were scolded!
I guess the best defense is a good offense. Why bring up an entirely unrelated group rather than disavow people who hurl the n-word at Congressmen and spit on them?
That’s all my post was for. Every side has idiots. To continue to bring them up to show you are “Better” or “Far Superior” is intellectual dishonesty and doesn’t promote useful dialog.
Accusing people of trying to show that they are “better” or “far superior” doesn’t really promote useful dialogue either, IMO. Neither of your posts in this thread seem to be remotely intended to open a dialogue or add anything substantive.
Oh, by the way, Holly - I found this article interesting:
http://www.bullfax.com/?q=node-do-americans-oppose-health-care-reform-why
The Gallup poll linked to on that page has 48% opposed and 45% in favor. Not quite as overwhelming numbers.
No, that’s not the case. I brought up behavior that I have been disturbed by. It’s not been isolated incidents – I’m not saying that it’s the behavior of the majority of those who oppose the bill. But it’s disingenuous to keep insisting that it’s a few fringe nutjobs.
It is absolutley a few fringe nut jobs- especially when you consider the number of people who do not want this bill. Otherwise there would be mass chaos, (spit and dollar bills flying about) in every area of this country. I don’t feel the least bit ashamed about being informed and against this bill. The entire production has been an outright farce. I do care about those without health insurance.
As for the reference for to pro-lifers who don’t care once the baby has been born- I’m not aware of any state in this country that doesn’t provide care for pregnant women or babies. Am I missing something?
Republicans are not the heartless demons some would portray them as. There are terrible republicans- and terrible democrats,and terrible independents. Being against this bill doesn’t make me uninformed, intolerant, or heartless.
I am distressed by bad behavior also. However, I am not sure that pointing out the bad behavior of ” a few nut jobs” opens dialogue. It makes people defensive because it appears that anyone opposing the bill is being lumped in with these people.
Jennie,
We all agree that people should not hurl the n-word or homophobic slurs or spit on people.
“I agree that the actions of a tiny minority of “ignorant” people using racial or homophobic slurs should not be tolerated and action should be taken against those people”. I wrote this in my original post.
It seems that sometimes people are so “dug in” to their position and need to be “right” that they cannot see the other side or have a real conversation. Why would you say that: ” I do think outright stating as fact that the cost of the bill is going to financially ruin the country is hyperbole.” My posts stated financial concerns that economists,analysts, and even the CBO have had. Why is genuinely being concerned about how much this Bill costs and how it would affect the everyday American and future generations a bad thing?
I don’t understand why the Congress had to “rush” this Bill without full disclosure of what is in the Bill ( Reconciliation will add more costs) and why they couldn’t have handled it differently.
Just so you know where I stand: I think we need a new Health Care Bill. I think they should have insured the 31 million people who were uninsured immediately instead of trying to “fix the whole Health Care system”. I want Tort Reform to bring the costs of Medical Malpractice down. I want everyone to be able to get Health Insurance no matter what their pre-existing condition. I don’t want anyone to be kicked off their insurance if they get sick or develop a life threatening condition. I want Health Insurance Companies to be able to compete across state lines, because competition (yes Capitalism) is what brings the price down. This is what the majority of Americans want.
I hope that is substantive enough for you!
As one who was at some of the tea parties I am very upset at the outright lies being published and talked about on the news. The tea parties I was at were very orderly and very patriotic. We simply wanted to voice our concerns over a bill being pushed through that the America people as a whole did not want. We were called morons, stupid, and trouble makers by the press on CNN. Where was your outrage then? Where was your outrage that American’s could not assemble and protest a socialist bill taking away the rights of the people to pick and choose their health care? This is supposed to be a nation “of the people, by the people and for the people”, but it has turned into a nation of minority rules.
To the people who are happy the bill has passed. Tell me how happy you are when you have to pay, under penalty of law, for insurance that will not cover your cancer treatments because somehow it was your fault that you got cancer. Or when you have to travel 100 or so miles one way to receive treatment because that is where the lowest bid is. It’s over people, America is no longer a democrasy. First it was taxes, then Social Security (which most of us will never see), and now government dictated health care. You think you hit the jackpot and are getting another free ride, but you are so sadly mistaken.
We were called morons, stupid, and trouble makers by the press on CNN. – Jan
Was it an individual commentator on CNN who made this remark? If so, I don’t s/he should be asked to return.
The name-calling and unfair labeling really makes it hard to engage in meaningful dialogue.
Tell me how happy you are when you have to pay, under penalty of law, for insurance that will not cover your cancer treatments because somehow it was your fault that you got cancer. – Jan
I have to confess I am not familiar with this provision of the bill. I assume there is language in the bill that is concerning to some. Can you point it out to me?
I think they should have insured the 31 million people who were uninsured immediately instead of trying to “fix the whole Health Care system”. I want Tort Reform to bring the costs of Medical Malpractice down. I want everyone to be able to get Health Insurance no matter what their pre-existing condition. I don’t want anyone to be kicked off their insurance if they get sick or develop a life threatening condition. I want Health Insurance Companies to be able to compete across state lines, because competition (yes Capitalism) is what brings the price down. This is what the majority of Americans want. – Holly
Of all the provisions, ensuring that those without coverage get insurance is the most important aspect to me and I am glad we can agree on that. To be fair, however, isn’t this where the greatest cost is going to come in?
The bill is flawed. I won’t disagree on that. Most of us are at still at the mercy of insurance companies whose first priority is profits and that is not a good place to be IMO. I think there was a sense, however, that it was up to the Democrats to get legislation passed to extend health coverage to all Americans. With uncertainty as to whether the Democrats will control Congress come the next election cycle, something needed to happen now or it would squashed as soon as the Republicans controlled things again.
It’s empty. Anyway. I’ll try again.
2 things that really irk me about this bill
1) the heafty fine for those w/o insurance- overseen by the IRS interestingly enough. This achieves what except more $ for the government?
2) requring small business owners(that can’t afford it) to offer coverage- my family’s business certainly can’t afford that. Insurance being the employer’s responsibility has never made any sense to me.
It is absolutley a few fringe nut jobs- especially when you consider the number of people who do not want this bill. Otherwise there would be mass chaos, (spit and dollar bills flying about) in every area of this country.
My point is about how marginalized the zealots really are in the Republican party. I keep being told that it’s just a few bad apples but that’s not what I see. Again, I’m not saying it’s a majority, but I think it’s a bigger number than some Republicans want to admit. The Rep who shouted “baby-killer” is on record as expressing “birther” sentiments, and I think that qualifies him as a nut-job, a racist and a zealot. And he’s an elected congressman.
I think it’s something reasonable Republicans should be willing to address. When there are major elements in the Democratic party that I’m out of step with I don’t have a problem talking about it. I’m not sure why Republicans here feel so defensive about it. I don’t doubt that there are reasonable people who have objections to the bill – though reasonable objections mostly seem to be about the cost, and honestly, that is something none of us really has a crystal ball with which we can prognosticate. However much we think we are informed about it, we are relying on the opinions and analysis of others to determine the fiscal impact. If Obama thought that the bill would bankrupt the nation, I’m pretty sure he would not have pushed for it.
I don’t feel the least bit ashamed about being informed and against this bill. The entire production has been an outright farce. I do care about those without health insurance.
I don’t doubt that you do.
As for the reference for to pro-lifers who don’t care once the baby has been born- I’m not aware of any state in this country that doesn’t provide care for pregnant women or babies. Am I missing something?
I think it’s antithetical to claim to care about the unborn while being unwilling to contribute to the cost of care for the children once they are born. In trying to limit access to a legal abortion (which did seem to be the intention of some in the House on Sunday), one takes on some level of moral responsibility for the child that is going to result.
Republicans are not the heartless demons some would portray them as. There are terrible republicans- and terrible democrats,and terrible independents. Being against this bill doesn’t make me uninformed, intolerant, or heartless.
Samantha, I’m not saying you are. I’m saying some Republicans are (well, not heartless demons, but bigots and zealots). A bigger percentage than I am comfortable with. I was against the war in Iraq (still am) and have been to anti-war rallies/marches. I hate, hate, hate the anarchists looking to smash Starbucks’ windows, the anti-Israel/pro-Palestine nutjobs, and the “9/11 was an undercover US or Israeli plot” freaks that I have encountered at these protests. I have no problem decrying their behavior, and I don’t feel lumped in with them (most of them probably aren’t even Democrats; the Democratic party is too conservative for them).
I just wish some people would calm down and wait to see what happens rather than going all Chicken Little.
I am distressed by bad behavior also. However, I am not sure that pointing out the bad behavior of ” a few nut jobs” opens dialogue. It makes people defensive because it appears that anyone opposing the bill is being lumped in with these people.
I’m not trying to, and I’ve gone to pains to state that. This is just the thought that popped out at me in relation to the bill because the vitriol has been really something to see. If people think that I am overstating it, with the intention of making others feel defensive or bad, well, I kind of think some people are trying to sweep it under the rug and not address it as a real problem in the Republican Party (I’m not speaking about anyone specific here, just in general in response to being told repeatedly that it’s not a problem and is being overreported).
We all agree that people should not hurl the n-word or homophobic slurs or spit on people.
Well, we may agree but the people who did these things don’t, and they have supporters who don’t. Go to any internet message board and you can find people willing to say the most appalling things. I just went to Free Republic, a prominent and mainstream Republican message board, and in about 45 seconds found a post praying for the death of Barack Obama.
“I agree that the actions of a tiny minority of “ignorant” people using racial or homophobic slurs should not be tolerated and action should be taken against those people”. I wrote this in my original post.
Yes. Where we are disagreeing is the “tiny minority” part.
It seems that sometimes people are so “dug in” to their position and need to be “right” that they cannot see the other side or have a real conversation. Why would you say that: ” I do think outright stating as fact that the cost of the bill is going to financially ruin the country is hyperbole.” My posts stated financial concerns that economists,analysts, and even the CBO have had. Why is genuinely being concerned about how much this Bill costs and how it would affect the everyday American and future generations a bad thing?
But Holly, you realize I can match you analysis for analysis with different numbers? I mean, let’s at least admit that which studies we believe and which polls we decide are accurate are at least somewhat related to where our political inclinations lead us to stand on this. That doesn’t mean that our beliefs aren’t sincerely held, but I think it’s realistic to at least acknowledge that hundreds of legislators (and millions of Americans) believe differently, or they wouldn’t be supporting the position that they are supporting.
I don’t understand why the Congress had to “rush” this Bill without full disclosure of what is in the Bill ( Reconciliation will add more costs) and why they couldn’t have handled it differently.
The other side of the coin is those who feel that no matter how much time was taken, roadblocks would be continually set up. Republicans want to stall and stall in the hopes that they win back seats in 2010. Even on Sunday night, with it being 11:00 p.m. on the East Coast, the Republicans kept insisting on pointless procedures to drag out the vote.
Just so you know where I stand: I think we need a new Health Care Bill. I think they should have insured the 31 million people who were uninsured immediately instead of trying to “fix the whole Health Care system”. I want Tort Reform to bring the costs of Medical Malpractice down. I want everyone to be able to get Health Insurance no matter what their pre-existing condition. I don’t want anyone to be kicked off their insurance if they get sick or develop a life threatening condition. I want Health Insurance Companies to be able to compete across state lines, because competition (yes Capitalism) is what brings the price down. This is what the majority of Americans want.
Hopefully, we will all get what we want (within reason) and be gracious enough to recognize it when we receive it.
As one who was at some of the tea parties I am very upset at the outright lies being published and talked about on the news. The tea parties I was at were very orderly and very patriotic.
Good for you. Some of them weren’t, however. Are you suggesting that the reports over the weekend were “outright lies?”
Beyond that, a certain percentage of the Tea Party members seem to be quick to agitate for armed rebellion, which is the antithesis of “patriotic” behavior, IMO.
We simply wanted to voice our concerns over a bill being pushed through that the America people as a whole did not want. We were called morons, stupid, and trouble makers by the press on CNN.
I sincerely doubt that a member of the press referred to you that way on CNN. Perhaps a commentator? Commentators have a lot more leeway and unfortunately a tendency to get attention for being outrageous. I’m sure you would be SHOCKED to hear some of the things people like me have been called by prominent Republican commentators such as Rush Limbaugh, Ann Coulter, Michelle Malkin and Glenn Beck.
Where was your outrage then? Where was your outrage that American’s could not assemble and protest a socialist bill taking away the rights of the people to pick and choose their health care? This is supposed to be a nation “of the people, by the people and for the people”, but it has turned into a nation of minority rules.
This was a bill voted on by our elected officials. Just like all of our bills are. When were you denied your right of assembly?
To the people who are happy the bill has passed. Tell me how happy you are when you have to pay, under penalty of law, for insurance that will not cover your cancer treatments because somehow it was your fault that you got cancer. Or when you have to travel 100 or so miles one way to receive treatment because that is where the lowest bid is. It’s over people, America is no longer a democrasy. First it was taxes, then Social Security (which most of us will never see), and now government dictated health care. You think you hit the jackpot and are getting another free ride, but you are so sadly mistaken.
Wow. I am happy the bill passed, but not because I think I have hit a jackpot or am anticipating a free ride. I have worked since I was 16 years old and have always paid my taxes. Your assumption that anyone who is happy about the bill passing is some sort of leech is offensive.
As for your other assumptions, I will have to wait and see. I am sure there will be bumps in the road to health care reform; things that are worse than they would’ve been under the old system. My hope is that the good will far outweigh the bad. I believe it will.
When there are major elements in the Democratic party that I’m out of step with I don’t have a problem talking about it. I’m not sure why Republicans here feel so defensive about it
Well for example, statements like this: As for whether the bigots and zealots represent a small minority – I don’t know. These stories are not hard to find. Maybe not all of them spitting on people, abusing them and shouting the n-word, but certainly the hysterical claims about socialism and other irresponsible bull.
To me, this insinuates that the lot of us are bigots or radicals. I am zealous in my feelings when it comes to politics, I can’t deny that, but I’m proud of it.
I think it’s antithetical to claim to care about the unborn while being unwilling to contribute to the cost of care for the children once they are born. In trying to limit access to a legal abortion (which did seem to be the intention of some in the House on Sunday), one takes on some level of moral responsibility for the child that is going to result.
Again as I stated earlier- whether its through programs like medicaid, baby love etc- I’m not familiar with any state in this country that doesn’t ensure the care of pregnant women- and the baby once it is born.
I don’t like the fact that if you are against this bill it must be bc you don’t care for the uninsured. As if the government has a history of making things all better- more red tape and BS typically follows.
However much we think we are informed about it, we are relying on the opinions and analysis of others to determine the fiscal impact. If Obama thought that the bill would bankrupt the nation, I’m pretty sure he would not have pushed for it.
The cost isan issue- Obama’s own estimates are astronomical. And as far as him not bankrupting the country- so far (in his short time in the White House) he doesn’t have the best spending record. To quote Biden. . . . .It’s a big bleepin deal.
First of all, I am not a Republican or a Democrat, I am an Independent who would vote for a Republican, a Democrat, an Independent, a Libertarian, or a Green Party candidate if I felt that they made sense and would represent me. I feel the person is much more important than the Party. I also am more socially liberal and more fiscally conservative so I really don’t fit with one Party. That being said I really feel a need to defend the Republicans for these type of attacks:
Samantha, I’m not saying you are. I’m saying some Republicans are (well, not heartless demons, but bigots and zealots). A bigger percentage than I am comfortable with.
I still believe it is a tiny percentage and don’t even think they call themselves Republicans. I think they are radical crazies who do not fall into any Party and we should stop focusing on them. Let’s focus on the people in the middle. Scott Brown was elected in MA with 67% of the vote and that state is only 12% Republican. That was the message against the Health Care Bill that the President and the Congress did not hear! I have alot of Democratic friends who are against the Health Care Bill and against the way it was passed. They are not being accused of being zealots or racists!
Jennie, what do you propose the participants on this discussion board do about the “zealots”, those saying “appalling things on message boards”? I think everyone who is against the Health Care Bill has denounced those people. What else should they do? Every Party has extremists but why are you so focused on them? We all agree those people are out of line and if they break the law they should be punished. Short of shooting them, what should we do?
I would like to know what people think is affordable health care insurance? Does anyone know what the government run health plan will cover and what it won’t cover? I know what my health insurance costs and what it doesn’t cover etc… But has anyone else thought what this new coverage and plan will actually do for a person or families and how much out of pocket they will have to spend on top of their insurance plans? Some familes have basic insurance but can’t use it because they can’t afford the co-pays and extra out of pocket expenses. What is affordable?
Things in this new bill are good but over all I’m still waiting until someone meaning the government gives out the numbers of affordable health insurance. I want numbers, :1,500 a year, 2,000, 5,000, what will it cover?, what will it not cover? I would like to know.
Darlene – those are great points. I havent really heard the numbers yet or anything about actual coverage. Hopefully they will put it out there soon.
I have abstained so far as I have strong feelings about how this bill is the beginning of the end of the US as we know it. Forget about the problems of this bill (although I will point out one of the problems later) the real problem is where we go from here. Obama is on record (I have seen the video) discussing how we get to a single payer system by increments. He is not going to stop here. The insurance companies will be out of business within 5 years. The idea of forcing a free market business (one that has a 5 percent profit margin) to enroll every customer that wants its business will end their business. This bill literally allows patients diagnosed with cancer to purchase insurance on the way to the hospital! I manage a medical building in Los Angeles. Every doctor I talk to (because of this bills cut in reimbursement in medicare reimbursements by over 30%) tells me that they are not going to see medicare patients when this bill kicks in. The next step will then be to order doctors to see medicare patients. Then we will see doctors leave the profession. Canada and England have no Research and Development because the govt has stopped funding for research. The Untied States and Israel are the only countries with real advances in medical breakthroughs. Why? The free market carrot at the end of the day.
Amnesty is next. Cap and Tax is on the horizon. I can’t wait until November. I hope we can limit the damage until then.
Samantha, regarding the requirement that individuals have insurance, my understanding is the fines aren’t particularly “heavy.” (I realize that may be in the eye of the beholder). The figure I saw quoted was $95 beginning in 2014 rising to $695 in 2016. However, the same article did mention a % of income being a factor, so I am not clear if the percentage of income would trump the flat dollar amount…? The point of the legislation, I believe is to encourage low income/middle income folks who do not have employer coverage to apply for subsidized insurance. If you are making a comfortable living and can afford individual health insurance, I think you should buy it,if for no other reason than it is the financially prudent thing to do.
As for employer-sponsored healthcare, what can I say, it’s the system we are working with. I didn’t think conservatives were eager to see that go away? It is my understanding that there will be subsidies for small business owners to offer coverage. I am aware that small businesses have a lot of burdens. I definitely think the government should be doing whatever it can to make sure this does not hurt small businesses in favor of big businesses.
Jeff, the cuts in Medicare funding are something I am very concerned about too. Also, the cuts to Medicare Advantage. It does seems the government takes from one area and gives to another. For example, correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the Medicare D “donut hole” is going away? I work with many senior citizen retirees in my role as a benefits administrator and it really bothers me when both the government and insurance companies make decisions which impact this population without an understanding or regard of how vulnerable some of them are to changes in coverages, co-pays, etc.
I’ll eat my words if I am wrong, but I would be very surprised if the health insurance companies are out of business in five years. I am sure lobbyists made sure that their profits would not be cut too severely. The big five insurance companies did make billions of dollars in 2009, after all. I think the bigger concern is the government having to step in to subsidize and that is why I do understand those who are concerned about the ultimate cost of this legislation.
The donut hole is going away but they siphoned off $500 billion of Medicare (they stated they would be able to get it back by ending fraud and abuse. What a joke! If they could have done that they would have done it years ago.) I also am concerned that the taxes start today but the costly benefits don’t kick in for 4 years! Do you believe they are putting those funds away and wont spend them for 4 years? I do not.
This bill does what most political democrats want. It robs Peter (the wealthy, but now the middle class) to pay Paul (poor voters). You will never lose votes by giving someone a freebie.
As a fiscal conservative, I would like to end all of the social programs (medicare, social security and the prescription drug for seniors deal (a republican idea)). None of these programs were around prior to 1925. Families took care of families and they all survived. The nanny-state mentality will ruin us. Take 4 minutes and Google Argentina economics. It mirrors what we have done here and they are close to economic ruin.
Jeff,
Your post explained it exactly and I agree this is the “end of the U.S. as we know it”! This Country was built on the Business Owner, the Entrepreneur, the Risk Taker, the person who believed in the American Dream. That person cannot survive let alone thrive with this type of Government control. You are so right that with this Health Care Bill we will lose quite a few doctors. Many employees will lose their really good Group Health Benefits because once the Health Insurance Companies have to insure everyone the rates will skyrocket to a cost where no employer will be able to afford to keep their employees on the Plan. It will save them money to pay the fine and those employees will have to go on Individual Plans with limited benefits.
I agree Cap and Trade is next on the “Agenda” and I cannot even imagine how many businesses will close because of this!
By the way, the new health care bill includes a mandate that all restaurants (including take out joints) include nutritional info on their MENUS! Including outside menus. This means that all restaurants will have to change menus and signage at a cost that will be passed onto the customer. Another hidden tax. Like we don’t know that Burger King is fattening.
The administration has lost its focus on jobs, as seen in the health care bill by attaching the takeover of the private Student Loan Program to the bill. They did this to help the CBO score the bill as “deficit-neutral” for the first 10 years. The problem with this is that the Chamber of Commerce estimates that over 40,000 people will lose their jobs as the private lenders go out of business immediately upon signing of the bill. So much for focusing on jobs.
To me, this insinuates that the lot of us are bigots or radicals. I am zealous in my feelings when it comes to politics, I can’t deny that, but I’m proud of it.
I wouldn’t say a lot. I would say more than I think is healthy for the Republican Party or for the country. I continue to believe that the more moderate voices have a responsibility to check the more hysterical elements, rather than denying they exist or justifying their behavior.
Again as I stated earlier- whether its through programs like medicaid, baby love etc- I’m not familiar with any state in this country that doesn’t ensure the care of pregnant women- and the baby once it is born.
I don’t like the fact that if you are against this bill it must be bc you don’t care for the uninsured. As if the government has a history of making things all better- more red tape and BS typically follows.
I don’t think I’m articulating my position well. I think that there is a fair overlap between people who don’t believe in a woman’s right to an abortion and people who resent having to pay for social programs that help needy children. They are pro-life when it comes to abortion but “fiscally conservative” when it comes to actual living children. I don’t think everyone who is against the bill doesn’t care for the uninsured. I resented abortion becoming such a huge sticking point for what I feel were political reasons. All of us who pay taxes find their money going to things that they don’t support. The pro-life crowd is not unique in that regard.
I’ve never really gotten behind the whole anti-government movement. Governments are made up of people, just like corporations are. Some are good and some are bad and most are somewhere in between. Neither is a particularly moral entity unless it’s checked by the people. The eternal debate seems to be about big government v. big business (maybe some conservatives don’t agree, but IMO in a large, complex society big business fills every void unless restrained); I don’t see one side as pure evil while the other is nothing but good. I believe in capitalism, but I am not a pure capitalist, at least in my admittedly shaky understanding of economics.
The cost isan issue- Obama’s own estimates are astronomical. And as far as him not bankrupting the country- so far (in his short time in the White House) he doesn’t have the best spending record. To quote Biden. . . . .It’s a big bleepin deal.
To be fair, he inherited quite a fiscal mess from his predecessor. Non-partisan studies predict that health-care reform will reduce the deficit. It is a lot of money, but the government deals in a lot of money on a daily basis. Raw numbers don’t necessarily accurately reflect the long-term picture.
Jennie, what do you propose the participants on this discussion board do about the “zealots”, those saying “appalling things on message boards”? I think everyone who is against the Health Care Bill has denounced those people. What else should they do? Every Party has extremists but why are you so focused on them? We all agree those people are out of line and if they break the law they should be punished. Short of shooting them, what should we do?
Yeah, not suggesting you shoot anyone, but thanks for implying I am. I guess that’s part of that “dialogue” that everyone thinks is such a good idea.
I think Republicans need to look at elements within their own party that are harmful and hateful, and face the behavior and beliefs of these people head on, rather than continuing to deny their existence. I think Republican legislators particularly have a responsibility not to whip these folks up into a frenzy. I was just reading about three Democratic party offices being vandalized in the past couple of days. The propensity for violence and the encouragement of violence by some elements worries me.
That was the message against the Health Care Bill that the President and the Congress did not hear! I have alot of Democratic friends who are against the Health Care Bill and against the way it was passed. They are not being accused of being zealots or racists!
The only person I accused of being racist is Rep. Baby-Killer from Texas, and I stand by that. I absolutely believe that 99% of birther nuts are racist; to them Obama is not a real American because he’s not white and he has a funny name.
You ignored the poll I linked to above that found support for the bill about even with opinion against it. If Scott Brown’s election is supposed to tell us what the nation wants, wouldn’t you agree that the overwhelming Democratic victories in November 2008 have a similar significance?
Things in this new bill are good but over all I’m still waiting until someone meaning the government gives out the numbers of affordable health insurance. I want numbers, :1,500 a year, 2,000, 5,000, what will it cover?, what will it not cover? I would like to know.
Darlene,
What a great question? You would think that this question would have been answered prior to the voting on the bill. Nancy Pelosi last week actually said ” We must pass this bill so you can see what is in it.” The most unbelievable statement in this whole mess. I don’t know what it will cover. But here is a stat I saw last week that should surprise you. Last year Medicare denied more claims than the average insurance company! So much for “curbing the insurance companies abuse”.
There is so much intolerance in so many posts!
Pointing out what the Republicans do or don’t do is just a smoke screen when it has been repeatedly stated that NO ONE agrees with the crazy elements in the Party or movement.
It is so amazing that this is an argument that keeps repeating itself over and over. Should we keep bringing up what Olbermann,Randi Rhoades, Rachel Maddow, Ed Shultz, and the many others have said when talking about those that disagree with them. Harry Reid said if you don’t want this Health Care Bill you didn’t want an end to slavery! How’s that for crazy and zealous!
Stop distracting the conversation, the Health Care Bill istself is what is concerning!
Stop distracting the conversation, the Health Care Bill istself is what is concerning!
Well, you told me. I didn’t realize you were in charge of what we were allowed to discuss, but I guess if you are incapable of arguing something then attempting to shut down discussion is the only avenue left.
I think I’m done anyway. I don’t mean to be all, “I’m taking my balls and going home,” but when my position is, “I think this was something that needed to happen and we need to see how things go from here” and the dominant opposing position seems to be “WE ARE DOOMED DOOMED DOOMED I TELL YOU IT’S THE END OF LIFE AS WE KNOW IT!!!!!!!”, then there doesn’t seem to be that much room for the dialogue you suggested earlier (before you told me to shut up, that is).
Yeah, not suggesting you shoot anyone, but thanks for implying I am. I guess that’s part of that “dialogue” that everyone thinks is such a good idea.
Jennie,
Obviously, I was kidding! But my point was that if everyone on this board is in agreement that those zealots and radicals do not represent the majority and everyone agrees their behavior is unacceptable, what more do you want from us?
I did not ignore the poll you forwarded and agree polls can have different results based on the questions and the groups being interviewed, however the majority of mainstream polls still show that most people are against this Health Care Bill.
Yes President Obama did win by a majority so people were hoping that he would implement change that would be good for the Country. The reason the Scott Brown won in MA and the Governor’s seat went to Republicans in NJ and VA is that after one year in office with this Congress, a good amount of people who voted for President Obama were no longer convinced that this political agenda was what they wanted. Jeff is right on in his post, this is an agenda and if people would have really been listening to what the President was saying, they wouldn’t be so surprised as to what is going on in this Country. Health Care is just the beginning!
Well, you told me. I didn’t realize you were in charge of what we were allowed to discuss, but I guess if you are incapable of arguing something then attempting to shut down discussion is the only avenue
then there doesn’t seem to be that much room for the dialogue you suggested earlier (before you told me to shut up, that is). left.
WHERE did I tell you to shut up? Where did I attempt to shut down the conversation.
Lets get educated here for a second. I stated “lets stay on the subject of Health Care and not get distracted by pointing out the crazies on the left or right”. So is it that you can’t have an argument or dialogue when facts or people won’t bow to your thought process? Or is something much deeper that ??
By the way… feel free to read whatever you want into this…you have pretended to know my thoughts anyway.
I’d like to go on record as being against crazies, bigots, spitters, and birthers.
I have had my head in the sand about the whole thing and have for awhile. I wasn’t happy with the Bush administration after 8 years, but I didn’t vote for Obama because he is so inexperienced. I didn’t hate the guy, though. I could immediately see some benefit to having him in office.
I am prolife. 100%. I hope (but don’t know) that there is a clause that protects medical staff and hospitals who would not perform/permit abortions as a matter of conscience. Anyone know?
Jennie, I agree that we all have a responsibility to help the poor, whether there is legal abortion or not.
As for the original topic, the health care bill that passed, I am woefully uninformed. I am not as worried about the cost of the bill as others who object. The numbers are too big for me to care about (that’s just me.) I do have a concern that the federal government is forcing private citizens to purchase with their own money (not the government’s) a product (insurance) from a private entity (an insurance company) under penalty of law. I have heard that this has never happened before, and it concerns me.
Ann -
No clause for “matter of conscience” issues that I know of……and the executive order Stupak caved for doesn’t trump the law itself, as I understand it from different interviews/articles (including some pro-choice people). Besides, President Obama hasn’t signed the executive order despite having signed this bill into law yesterday. I also wonder why Stupak agreed to this deal with the most pro-choice president in our history – - from Obama’s record, I think we can safely assume that he will stack all of our new “health”-related agencies with pro-choice people.
On a side note, I also want to thank Vice President Biden describing it as a “big f#%$ing deal” into the microphone as he introduced our president yesterday. Just when I think he’s said it all……I just had a 7th grade girl try to show other kids his “slip-of-the-tongue” on YouTube in class – fortunately I caught her before she could do the damage. So many people were watching……I realize people use lousy language, but really, how about a bit of decorum as you introduce our President? Is that not too much to ask?
Darlene and Jeff,
This is not final because they are still working on Reconciliation which could make the situation even worse for Individuals who have to purchase their own Health Insurance and don’t qualify for the government run program, but this gives you a pretty good idea of the increases in premium costs! I know this is an emotionally charged issue, but we really have to look at the facts and see if this Bill is really going to provide better Health Care coverage for the majority of the Country at a lower cost to the consumer. I don’t think it will.
Even though many on both sides are “dug in” to their positions and “emotionally invested” in their Political Parties, common sense needs to prevail to help the Country.
Millions of Families Will Pay $2,100 More in Annual Health Insurance Premiums Under Senate Bill
Tuesday, December 01, 2009
By Susan Jones, Senior Editor
(CSNews.com) – For millions of American families, the cost of health insurance premiums will increase $2,100 a year under the Democratic health care bill now being debated in the U.S. Senate.
That’s according to conducted by the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) and the staff of the Joint Committee on Taxation (JTO).
The CBO-JCT analysis of Sen. Harry Reid’s bill found that people buying their own health insurance policies on government-run exchanges – as they will be required to do if they lack coverage through work — will see their premiums increase by up to 13 percent in 2016, the year in which the Senate bill takes full effect.
For people purchasing their own insurance on government-run exchanges, “Average premiums per policy …in 2016 would be roughly $5,800 for single policies and $15,200 for family policies under the proposal, compared with roughly $5,500 for single policies and $13,100 for family policies under current law.”
I find it funny that we are talking about costs. Show me ONE govt. program that has been implemented that does not have its cost skyrocket out of control. When you can print money costs mean nothing.
This Bill is already in the negative. The last CBO scoring of last week has the Bill in the red by about 50-60 billion and that’s before they put their “fix” on it.
Just as a side note….The biggest lie in this whole debate is about the uninsured and health care. EVERYONE in America can get Health Care ..EVERYONE. You can go to a clinic, state or county hospital for care. What people don’t like is that they feel that kind of care is substandard. Bigger than that they feel that if I have worked my ass off and and I can afford a better plan than the uninsured, in someway it’s not fair. The unspoken discussion on the Left, is really about ‘class warfare”!
One more thing..the doughnut hole does not go away that fast. Medicare will reimburse ( More free money } $250 if they reach the hole in the first few years. Then slowly it will reduce the hole till they close it by about 2019. Most of the seniors who are on the plan now will be dead by then.
AP Report:
Health care overhaul is going to lower your health insurance premiums.
Obama says that once new competitive insurance markets open for business, in 2014, individuals buying coverage comparable to what they have today will pay 14-20 percent less. Family coverage costs about $13,400 a year, so that could be real money.
But the president’s assurance is based on a selective reading of a Congressional Budget Office report that found most individuals would probably buy better, more expensive coverage than what’s available today.
And Obama skips over an important caveat: The budget office didn’t say premiums would be lower than currently. It said premiums for some people would be lower than they would have been without the bill. Premiums for others would be higher.
With the U.S. population getting older, and medical science pushing the technological envelope, there’s very little reason to think premiums will go down. The best Obama can hope for is to slow the pace of increases.
I’m with Darlene on this – I want to know the who, what, why and how much. I need to see what it is all about first.
Jeff – I agree with you about why would there be a vote (and pass) on something that no one knows the details of – that’s scary to me.
My H said to me this morning that up until now there was only one requirement of people when it came to the government and that was when you are 18 you had to sign up for the draft. I do not like knowing that people do not have a choice when it comes to insurance. Whether the fee is $100 a year or $5 a year - it should be an individual’s choice whether or not they have insurance.
My Mom is 83 and I do worry about how this is going to affect her and her declining health. She (and my deceased father) have worked very hard their entire lives and saved every extra penny they made to have the necessities. I would hate for my mom to incur add’l expenses because of her health. I worry about the aged very much.
I plan on asking my doctor about his feelings on all of this and how this affects him and his patient load and salary. I know that he made a whoppin’ (please note I am being sarcastic) $650 for taking care of me and my unborn son for 9 months, his delivery and my follow up appointment. That’s like $72 a month. And, that was with private insurance. I can’t imagine the government would want to pay even that much.
It will be interesting to see how this all plays out. That’s for sure.
The biggest lie in this whole debate is about the uninsured and health care. EVERYONE in America can get Health Care ..EVERYONE. You can go to a clinic, state or county hospital for care. What people don’t like is that they feel that kind of care is substandard. - Stu
Stu, to be fair, I don’t think it is a matter of “feeling” the care is substandard – it frequently is.
My sympathies are with those in the lower middle-class who DO work and don’t qualify or can’t afford an individual, group or state-run plan. There are some folks that fit in this category and I have known them – my mom was one.
She cobbled together her care from visits to free clinics or expensive ER visits. She frequently went without care. Ignoring a retinal tear until it was too late caused her to lose a portion of her sight.
I am not asking for a nanny state. I just think the United States can join the rest of the civilized world in providing quality health care for all its citizens. Maybe this bill has too many flaws, but I think the motives are good. At this point, I am keeping an open mind. Hopefully, if there are serious defects, they can be addressed and fixed. If the Republicans return to power, they can address this. I just hope the whole thing isn’t demolished….
I agree Anya. Its very frustrating when you can’t afford insurance but you don’t qualify for help. Thats the case for a lot of people- so you just pray you don’t get sick. In our area there is one low cost clinic and I think you would be better off sick then venturing to the area it is in. I’m not for this bill but I would love to see some major reform in healthcare. When I look over an itemized bill from a hospital or doctor’s visit its enough to make my blood boil.
Anya,
I’m sorry for what your Mom had to go through.
I know of many people who get better care than I do and they have NO insurance. One person had Heart Valve replacement at a major hospital for free through some organization and another pre, postnatal care and delivery for free. So the help is out there. Do I think we should have to do this? I am not sure. As to your other statement about the sub-standard care I agree with you. So why couldn’t they have worked on that part of our health care system? There are so many things and ways to to improve the system without a total overhaul.
Statistically the majority of Americans wanted health reform. I am one of them. Statistically the majority of Americans did not want the packaged that passed. I am one of them. Don’t we deserve the best from our politicians ??
One last thing… When people talk about us being like other industrial nations then maybe we should stop answering the call when the rest of the world calls on us when there is a disaster or conflict like Haiti, Chili, Korea, and so on.
Stu, thanks for your thoughtful words.
On this we agree — we DO deserve better from our politicians. I also agree that huge bills (not only health care, but others) that combine so many different elements are generally not in the people’s best interest. Transperancy is lacking and there remain big questions as to how exactly some of provisions will actually be administered.
Did Nancy Pelosi really say that “health care is our gift to the American People”! Tell that to the employees and retirees of ATT, Caterpillar, Verizon,Deere, Valero Gas and numerous other companies that will reduce their employee benefits and prescription benefits.
AT&T also said Friday that it is looking into changing the health care benefits it offers because of the new law. Analysts say retirees could lose the prescription drug coverage provided by their former employers as a result of the overhaul.
Here is the full article:
This is what happens when you pass a Bill just to say you “passed it”! These are the unintended consequences of not researching the facts, of not listening to the People, of having to be “right” rather than taking the time to really see how it is going to influence the economy. The worst part is that it is the law now and cannot be reversed.
A friend sent me this link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdBuvLXTv3c. I shouldn’t be surpised about this video. Take it with a grain of salt. IMO I don’t think giving Native American Child Sex Offenders Government Money is right but it’s in this NEW Healthcare bill which 219 Democrats signed.
No clause for “matter of conscience” issues that I know of… (flowerfish)
Well if that’s true, the hospital serving the poor in our inner-city will shut down. It is a Catholic Hospital and they will not permit abortions there. I know this Bishop, he will regretfully close the hospital, the only one serving the poor in the city. All others have abandoned the area.
The worst part is that it is the law now and cannot be reversed. (Holly)
Is that true? I think anything can be reversed. I heard Republicans discussing this on talk radio. Some think repealing the law is their best hope, others think it will be done piecemeal.
I truly don’t think the bill will stand as it is for very long if people are really as incensed as they seem to be. Anya is right that transparency was missing, and the problem with that is no one is sure what is there until too late.
That is the second polishitian who had the nerve to stand in font of the cameras and say ” This is a gift to the American people ” The ARROGANCE of these people. To think they can act like Kings and Queens and give something to there subjects. Oh and by the way since we are paying for it.. and might I add dearly paying for it….hows that a gift ??
Holly, the new law closes a loophole from the 2003 Medicare bill. AT&T was getting reimbursed for 28% of the cost of offering prescription drug benefits to its retirees yet was able to deduct 100% of the expense from its taxes. Nice – are you able to deduct expenses you didn’t pay out from your taxes? Now they will only be able to deduct the actual 72% they pay from their taxes. So this company that had revenues of over 30 BILLION last year, net income of over 3 BILLION and paid out 13 million in bonuses to 12 executives has decided to cut their prescription plan and blame the new law? It seems like they have plenty of money to offest the tax write off they are losing without cutting benefits (remember -they’re not losing the reimbursement – merely the ability to deduct the reimbursement as an expense from their taxes). This was merely the closing of an unfair tax loophole.
You know, my car broke down today. I guess I should blame that on the new healthcare bill too.
Susanp,
The point is not what AT & T used to pay in taxes or what they deduct. The point is the increasing dependence on our employers to cover the increased costs of our Government. The Corporations in this country don’t pay additional taxes when taxes are raised, they just pass on those costs to their customers (especially companies like A T & T that have little competition). The lower and middle class always pay increases in government spending and higher taxes. I should know. I run a company that passes on all tax increases to my customers.
As for your point about executive pay and bonuses, we should be treating our rich with praise rather than disdain. When is the last time you received a job from a poor person? Leveling the playing field on wealth in this country (which is Obamas stated goal) will only leave us looking like other non free-market countries. As long as the big corporations make their money legally, I am happy to see multi million dollar bonuses. They either spend the money, invest in companies that spur growth, or save the money which allows banks to lend to small businesses, the real jobs creators in this country.
The health care bill that was passed has some good points, but the massive entitlement that will make us a cradle to grave dependent on the government country will lead us all to the poor house.
Get your car fixed soon before the states make services subject to sales tax. That is coming soon.
“There are more instances of the abridgement of the freedom of the people by the gradual and silent encroachment of those in power, than by violent and sudden usurpation.”
— President James Madison
What you call a Loophole I call an Incentive. This Bill is full of them. The fact is when you provide a company Tax Incentives they end up doing things that they ordinarily wouldn’t. There are plenty of companies that don’t make the money AT&T made and provide these benefits.
When you start saying things like…”look how much money they made” or “they pay their CEO X amount of dollars” then you are suggesting their salaries or bonuses need to be controlled. The mantra has been “those Evil companies”. So why not curb the pay of the Union Heads of which some make a $1,000,000 or more. Capitol Hill staffers of which 2,000 make over $100,000. Did you know that from 1998-2008 the public sectors income grew at 28.6% while the private sector grew at 19.3%. Weren’t the Public sector jobs supposed to be to serve at the sacrifice of better pay than the private sector. The reason being that the union or gov’t jobs were considered “secure” and safe. There was very little risks in these jobs compared to private sector jobs that derive income from competition. Lets curtail the money people like the Clinton’s earned, 108 million for 8 years. How about the actors who make more than 10 million a film? You get the picture. So who do we limit ?
I am one who wants companies to earn and make as much money as they can. That helps the public in so many ways. We are a Capitalist country. I make NO apologies for that. The world looks to us for protection,money, and help. They don’t call France.
I am one who wants companies to earn and make as much money as they can. - stu
Me, too. I am uncomfortable with people demonizing the rich.
So this company that had revenues of over 30 BILLION last year, net income of over 3 BILLION…- susanp
This is said like it is an accusation? If AT&T made that kind of money, good for them. They are suppose to make money for their shareholders, right? See, if they change their behavior regarding prescription coverage for retirees based on the bill, then it IS the fault of the bill. If they got a tax break to offer more generous coverage, why would this bill remove the tax break? Why? How does that aspect of the bill promote health care? How is that better? How is it reform?
The bill should help, not hurt these retirees.
If you really want to see why people are so upset about this Health Care Bill and the inequities in it read this article from the Wall Street Journal The Government Pay Boom – WSJ.com
President Obama and the Congress made deals with so many Unions to get their support and the People know it! The average American who is not in a Union or a Government job is not getting the same deal as those who are and there is no “equality for all”! We are paying for those “deals” in our taxes and in so many other ways. As a small business owner in CA we feel squeezed every day! Who is there to advocate for us? We have had many clients from contractors to retailers, to manufacturers declare bankruptcy in the last year and no one is there to help them. For many of our clients who work as employees for companies they are in fear (and rightly so) that they are going to lose their good Group Health Insurance because with this new Health Care Bill their employers will not be able to afford to insure them and they will chose to pay the penalty so their employees will be left to find insurance on their own. What a mess!
All they had to do was fix what was wrong. We have all listed those problems over and over. Instead the Democrats had to make a STATEMENT and overhaul the the way insurance is delivered in America. This was a simple power grab and the first step in a “wealth distribution change”. Just so you know .. I am not happy at ALL with the Republicans either.