By Anya
With less than a month until the ninth anniversary of the September 11 attacks and with several highly contested races occurring in the upcoming mid-term elections, a local issue has become a national debate.
The dispute concerns plans by the Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf and other sponsors to build a $100 million, 13-story, glass and steel Islamic community center, including a mosque, two blocks from the site of the World Trade Center attacks.
Polls have shown that the majority of Americans, and New Yorkers specifically, soundly reject the wisdom of such a plan. Despite this, New York City Major Michael Bloomberg has been a vocal proponent of the plan. “The government should never, never be in the business of telling people how they should pray, or where they can pray.”
Some family members of September 11 victims have spoken up in support of the project saying that the moderate side of Islam needs a wider audience and the mosque is “fitting tribute.” Others feel the location of the mosque shows a great insensitivity to those who lost loved ones in the World Trade Center attacks.
There are also some concerns about where exactly the money is coming from to fund the center.
Perhaps most disappointing, instead of an honest debate about the myriad of issues involved, many politicians have sought to score political capital by boxing their opponents into a corner on the issue. President Obama has been notably silent on the issue. He has indicated that he believes backers have “the right” to build the mosque, but he has not revealed personal support for it. Although some have sought to frame this as a Democrat/Republican issue, positions have not fallen strictly on political lines. Many Democrats have joined Republican colleagues in denouncing the plan. A few Republicans and Independents, such as U.S. Senate candidate Charlie Crist of Florida have been willing to offer support.
Where do you stand on the question of the Ground Zero Mosque?
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Comments
120 Responses to Location, Location, Location: The Ground Zero Mosque
There is no question that the development of this building (the Mosque is only a part of this so called Cultural Center) in that area is a bad idea. It has nothing to do with religious freedom, the 1st amendment, or bigotry against Muslims. It just does not feel right. The Muslims have a habit of building Mosques near, or on, sites of so-called victories over their enemies. While this Iman has stated that this building will be used as a ” healing center” he has also stated in the past that “the United States was an accessory to the 9/11 attacks” and ” the US created Osama Bin Laden”. He also will not respond to the question of the money source for this project.
Contrary to your take on President Obama’s silence (maybe you wrote this before this weekend), the President stuck his foot in it again (this is becoming a common practice of his) by stating on Friday, to a dinner with Muslims, that he believed that they had the right to build this project in Lower Manhattan, then on Saturday when his comments created a negative firestorm, he attempted to back off that statement and made it worse.
We would never allow the KKK to build a cultural center on the site of Martin Luther King’s assassination, nor would we allow the Japanese to build a cultural center at Pearl Harbor. The 9/11 families should count and this Mosque should be moved out of eyesight of the World Trade Center.
This is going to be fun !
Jeff, I have to admit I didn’t look extensively into Obama’s comments. My understanding is he has stated they have “the right” to build it, but that isn’t the same as being a champion for it. I do see he made some additional comments on Saturday. I will check those out. Thanks.
Stu, are you looking forward to a good debate?
I just saw the New York Governor is going to hold meetings this week to propose moving the mosque to a less controversial site. I am interested to see how this all plays out.
Ugh! I don’t think it feels right either.
Does anyone remember that Pope John Paul II asked the Carmelite nuns to move the location of their convent because it was too close to Auschwitz? I knew that those nuns were not intending harm. It was controversial and opened hurtful accusations between Jewish and Catholic people. Both sides had legitimate positions. In the end, the bigger question was, “Would this really help reconciliation? Is there another alternative?” The Pope, rightly, asked the nuns to move their convent, and they did.
This can be framed as a question of religious liberty and bigotry, but I disagree. It is a case of the property owner being especially insensitive to his neighbors. These controveries occur when Walmart tries to build a superstore too close to a Civil War battlefield. People have feelings that should be respected. I wish President Obama, while recognizing the legal right of the people to build the mosque would recognize the just feelings of those who are opposed to it. I am disappointed he hasn’t.
Americans love our religious liberty and property rights, but we also like our free speech. I agree that the people who fund the Mosque have a legal right to build where they are. I do not agree that it will inspire religious tolerance or reconciliation as “planned.” It’s obvious that people are hurt by the plans. They know it. I won’t be surprised if they get a whole lot of insensitive free speech directed at them. It’s a controversy that does not have to happen. Just because you can do it, doesn’t mean you should, or even that you are right.
Ok, as I was reading these comments I saw that the ad at the bottom of the page.
It says : Obama Care….Stop Him! I think Stu must has some kind of magical powers here with the advertising.
The President asked the Republican spin doctors ….What can I do to hand you the mid term elections ? OK let me give a speech for ya !
I think he should have stayed out of the discussion and left it as it should be.. a local issue. That being said.. why won’t he stand by his convictions ?
There is nothing here that even smacks of religious bigotry. No one is denying anyone to practice their religion. What is being asked is to show the victims of 9/11 and our country some much needed healing with the Muslim community. Is this how they propose to build a bridge ? Insulting and offending so many people ? Why won’t they show some compassion ? Has anyone followed the rebuilding of the church at ground zero? It was destroyed. The Port Authority which owns most of the land in and around ground zero is putting up road block after road block for the church to be re built. Why is that ?
By the way Pam…the ad….I know the owner !
Here is a link to the story about the church being re built.
.foxnews.com/politics ground-zero-church-archdiocese-says-officials-forgot/
Stu..didn’t you hear Foxnews isn’t real news?
I heard about this Church years ago and I just assumed it would have been built by now but I guess I was wrong. I guess the question is who is allowed to have freedom of religion and who isn’t?
stu…you did well, & not much more I can lend to this story w/o repeating since I agree with where you’re coming from. (Sorry to hear anything in re. to FOX is considered faux news…but so be it.) Personally, I wish our president had NOT put in his 2 cents. Bloomberg is doing a better job of articulating what 70% of NY’ers don’t agree with. Ultimately, I think their inept governor may just have solutions that will work. August is notoriously the ‘silly season’ for politics…only sorry this mosque has now become a political football. I could be extremely trite by bringing up Obama’s memorable solution after entering what was a local problem before… beer summit.
Please don’t mix apples & oranges Darlene, in re. to freedom of religion…actually I think this Imam is being treated w. great (& blind) respect. Many a time I wonder why the 10 Commandments have been stripped from court houses…& crosses from public squares. Getting into freedom of religion goes all ways…but I’d assume there is always room for decency in choices. What is being heard is a cry for humane respect.
How great a country we do have that these Muslims seem to understand ‘democracy’. Yet no word from the Imam as to an open dialogue. Have we heard that the Saudis are paying…?
I didn’t really see anything wrong with Darlene’s question. It’s not apples and oranges to compare the rebuilding of the church to the building of the mosque. The mosque has been approved because the zoning board (it’s called something else, but same thing) decided that the site has no historical significance and so they can’t halt construction. The Port Authoruty has stopped all negotiations with the Greek Orthodox Church, even though an agreement had been reached years ago, and they cannot proceed. We have two religious groups wanting to build two houses of worship on two sites at or near Ground Zero. Both have to work with government bodies. One was approved, the other is stalled. Why?
I don’t think the problem with the Orthdox Church is religious bigotry, but it sure doesn’t look good for NY, considering that the mosque has been approved, does it?
Does the site of the mosque have historical significance? If your loved one was vaporized in the 9/11, would you feel that the site and the surrounding area has historical significance? I would. Would you think a mosque would be an appropriate structure at this site? I would not, for the very reasons that I would consider it historical.
I think it’s more than a local issue. I think it’s a national issue. I want my president to show respect for our laws (federal and local,) then tell me whether he thinks the site is historically significant and whether he considers the victims’ families’ feelings should be considered?
Some people think that our country needs to allow the building of this Mosque to prove our tolerance and our ability to treat Muslims fairly.
I think that the people of the United States are quite tolerant of other religions and cultures. I think that tolerance must go both ways and maybe just maybe the Muslim community could show some tolerance for the feelings of the majority of the people in New York City and this country.
No one is saying don’t build it. They just do not want it built near Ground Zero. I think that can be accommodated.
I think if you say no mosque in that area you should preclude any religious structure within a certain radius. My issue here is that there is already a mosque there, this will be bigger and include a culture center. My understanding of the Greek Orthodox church is that there is a lack of funding to finish the renovations, but I could be wrong. That I got from a family member who lives in NY so take that with a grain of salt. I always have to stop and remind myself that the terrorists weren’t the only muslims killed on 9/11. Long story short, I am fine with it.
It’s funny how we as a country have no problem making sure we don’t trample on the rights of Illegal Aliens, or other countries. Citizens of the US mistreated all the time. We read about it all the time.
I think if you say no mosque in that area you should preclude any religious structure within a certain radius.
So we should not build any religious building at ground zero….just another way to appease those who don’t care about us. Where is the tolerance for the victims, the families, and our Country. We were attacked by extremest Muslims. They killed over 3,000 people and countless more are dying still from working down there. Enough is enough. I really have a disdain for the arguments that try to muddy the waters and bring in other faiths such as Christians or we are trying to prevent religious worship some how. My goodness it’s so clear what the issue is and how it should be solved.
Sorry for the rant and it was in no way directed at you….Erin Kate.
Erin Kate…Long story short, I am fine with it.
Pam@IW says…I think that tolerance must go both ways and maybe just maybe the Muslim community could show some tolerance for the feelings of the majority of the people in New York City and this country.
I can appreciate both points of view.
I tend more towards ErinKate’s, but I also have had similar thoughts to Pam. Part of me thinks that the Muslim leaders could take a step back and ask whether they have to pursue this. Is there a viable alternative?
That said, my biggest issue is with politicians and pundits trying to win political capital with this. That is one of reasons I think it should stay a local issue. We might ALL have an opinion, but not everyone’s opinion matters.
My entry for the stupidiest and least thoughful comment regarding this issue goes to Newt Gingrich:
“There should be no mosque near Ground Zero in New York so long as there are no churches or synagogues in Saudi Arabia.”
Sorry, I do not feel the United States should fellow the lead of Saudi Arabia on any issue.
That said, my biggest issue is with politicians and pundits trying to win political capital with this. That is one of reasons I think it should stay a local issue. We might ALL have an opinion, but not everyone’s opinion matters.
I agree with your first part, a politician can make an issue over a cockroach. Though the whole Country was affected by 9-11 so then I think we all have a say.
My entry for the stupidiest and least thoughful comment regarding this issue goes to Newt Gingrich:
“There should be no mosque near Ground Zero in New York so long as there are no churches or synagogues in Saudi Arabia.”
Sorry, I do not feel the United States should fellow the lead of Saudi Arabia on any issue.
I so agree with the last part of your statement. We probably differ at….I believe that for all Countries. We need to be the leader. I understand Newts comment but it has absolutely nothing to do with this.
If two blocks away isn’t acceptable, what is? Four blocks? Six? A mile? Two? I don’t believe that anti-Muslim prejudice has nothing to do with the issue for anyone objecting to the mosque. That’s just not reasonable given the tenor and substance of some of the objections. Conflating the millions of adherents of a religion with a small group of terrorists is prejudicial pretty much by definition, IMO. It makes as much sense to not want a mosque within blocks of the WTC as it does to not want a Army recruitment office within blocks of the Oklahoma City bombing.
Ann, your comparison to the convent near Auschwitz is an interesting one. I think one difference is that the entire area around the WTC if very much a vital business district with people living and working in a variety of businesses. People may call it “sacred ground”, but it’s not, at least not in the same sense I could see a Civil War battlefield or a WWII concentration camp. As one blogger I saw pointed out, within the same radius there is a strip club. There is a 7-11. A Dunkin Donuts. There are probably, if my knowledge of NYC means anything, 11 or so Duane Reades. The only objection to the mosque/cultural center than I can see is the equivalency between Muslims and the 9/11 terrorists. And I think that equivalency does a disservice to the millions of peace-loving Muslims around the world. As well as the innocent Muslims who died in the 9/11 attacks.
Quite simply one only needs to Google where the mosques are in NYC. There is one within 5 blocks of the new one being resoundingly opposed.
While I am a historical NY’er (I haven’t lived there in over 40 yrs.), we did lose 5 friends…2 who were never found. It is a burial ground…wheels of one of the jets were found on the roof of the bldg. that is to become a new mosque? Sorry Jennie, I repectfully disagree. Of course life goes on in & around Ground Zero, but I believe this Imam, of all people, should be hearing what those who lost & those who are still losing loved ones. He would serve his peace-loving Muslims well by LISTENING & doing the RIGHT thing. This is not a proving ground for religious tolerance.
We were attacked by extremest Muslims. They killed over 3,000 people and countless more are dying still from working down there. Enough is enough. I really have a disdain for the arguments that try to muddy the waters and bring in other faiths such as Christians or we are trying to prevent religious worship some how. My goodness it’s so clear what the issue is and how it should be solved.
I think the most important part of this statement is “extremest Muslims.” They did kill 3000+ people, some of whom were Muslims who did not subscribe to the extremest views of the hijackers. My position on this is that we can’t say because a small group of Muslims caused this horrible tragedy that no Muslim should be able to practice their religion in that area. There is a Catholic church around the corner, should we not let them hold Mass? No. Should the orthodox greek church not be allowed to practice? No. If you are going to restrict use of land in that area out of respect, than you shouldn’t be allowed to restrict it based on viewpoint. If you are going to ban religious practice in the area you can’t just do it with Muslims. I don’t think it is disrespectful in any way–innocent Muslims lost their lives on that day too, those who either worked in the WTC or those who were working in the relief effort.
I don’t think it should be legally banned either, Erin Kate.
I do think any Muslim group that wants to erect a mosque + center for religious tolerance in the area should put it somewhere else. They should show some empathy and understanding and respect for those who suffered and died there. Of course the Catholic and Orthodox churches would not inspire the same feelings for the obvious reason that it is not an extremist Catholic or Orthodox group that murdered 3000+ people in that neighborhood. When Catholic nuns, completely innocent of any responsibility in the Holocaust, were asked to move their convent away from the area surrounding the Auschwitz concentration camp, they did. They should have. It took some “arguing” but they finally understood. I find it shameful that this Muslim group will not find another space out of respect for the victims of the people who lost their lives and their families. I also wonder how the area wouldn’t be considered “historically significant.”
I don’t believe that anti-Muslim prejudice has nothing to do with the issue for anyone objecting to the mosque. That’s just not reasonable given the tenor and substance of some of the objections.- Jennie
Not fair!
You can believe it. Some of the objections, I am sure, are simply anti-Muslim. But to dismiss every objection as even being a little bit anti-Muslim is unfair. I object to the building of the mosque and center for religious tolerance there because it is so upsetting to the majority of the victims’ families. If this were just a mosque, I’d be more suspicious of the objections myself. But this is a center for religious tolerance! So let’s show some, ok? A center for religious tolerance that is this divisive is what raises my suspicions. This is not an exercise in bridge-building between faiths. It is not the mosque that is the problem. It is not the center for religious tolerance that is the problem. it is the location that is the problem.
What is OK? How about outside the boundaries of where debris was recovered. I don’t know what that is, but someone does. Closer, if the majority of families don’t object. Who should figure this out? The center of religious tolrance should conduct a survey, if it is truly meant to breed peace and harmony.
Again, I am calling for the Muslim group to do this without government coersion.
May I add one piece of information that some of you may not be aware of…9-11 happened at our backdoor at the Pentagon. ( Creepy for me, that it demolished my husband’s OLD office.) In memory of those fallen, an interfaith chapel has been built inside the Pentagon w. ceremonies including every religious faith I can think of – including Muslims.
Ann, I obviosly agree… it is troubling how this’historically significant’ area has been & is increasingly becoming what it never should be – POLITICAL. Furthermore, I find it troubling to hear what this Imam has written in re. to his demands to set up their own mini-justice system etc. within the confines of ‘their beliefs’. We do not need to allow what amounts to ‘sharia law’ being the force of anyone who lives in our republic! I know, I know…religions of all stripes do have beliefs outside the ‘mainstream’ but nothing…NOTHING that compares to sharia!
Another point: US battlefields are very solemn not just because of the battle, but because of the dead. There were over 3,000 casualties at Ground Zero. Half that died at Bunker Hill. Fewer died at Pearl Harbor, and they were in uniform! The site of the WTC is just as solemn as any other US battlefield.
Me again, I keep thinking of more:
Jennie, people who object to this mosque do not have to be anti-muslim to do so. I would support building a (non-extremist, obviously) mosque and center anywhere else in the city, just not there. The location is the issue. Are they equating the people of this mosque with the terrorists? I absolutely deny that. I do not think the group building the mosque are the same as the terrorists. The terrorists identified themselves as muslim, though. That is a fact. What victims know in their minds is not always consistent with what they feel in their hearts. In cases like these, feelings should matter.
My analogy to the Catholic convent at Auschwitz works here. Jewish groups did not object to Catholic convent because they equate nuns with Nazis or are anti-Catholic. They were aware that the nuns’ vocation was prayer for healing and reparation for the grave crimes committed at the camp, and that was welcomed by the Jewish people. But they also knew that the nuns were praying for conversions to Christ. That is not something to which Jewish people normally object. Christians do that. They pray for conversions. It was where this prayer was being offered that irritated the Jewish groups. It was the presence of visible crosses from the death camp that was hurtful. The nuns did not want these Jewish people to read the crosses as saying, “We Christians will conquer you Jews.” But that’s what it felt like, at such a solemn site. Were the Jewish people being over-sensitive? No. Emotions are just as much a part of the human condition as reason. In certain sites, the emotional response of the people must be considered.
In this case, the cultural center/mosque/center for peace feels the same. If it is intended to bring healing, it’s failing miserably. That makes me suspicious of it’s stated purpose.
There is a Catholic church around the corner, should we not let them hold Mass? No. Should the orthodox greek church not be allowed to practice? No. If you are going to restrict use of land in that area out of respect, than you shouldn’t be allowed to restrict it based on viewpoint. If you are going to ban religious practice in the area you can’t just do it with Muslims.
How is this relevant? Where is the connection to Greek Orthodox killing us ? Did the Catholics kill us also ? One has nothing to do with the other.
If two blocks away isn’t acceptable, what is? Four blocks? Six? A mile? Two? I don’t believe that anti-Muslim prejudice has nothing to do with the issue for anyone objecting to the mosque. That’s just not reasonable given the tenor and substance of some of the objections. Conflating the millions of adherents of a religion with a small group of terrorists is prejudicial pretty much by definition, IMO.
It seems to be a game when you say that. Common sense would dictate what would work for the people that are affected. I’m curious as to why all those millions and millions of Muslims can not see this is not a way to build bridges, and if this is a problem with our prejudice then why are there Mosques in the area already ?
How is this relevant? Where is the connection to Greek Orthodox killing us ? Did the Catholics kill us also ? One has nothing to do with the other.
No, stu, but neither did all Muslims. Neither did these Muslims.
Did we ever find our where the money is coming from? I might not have heard the most recent news.
I just watched this video on CNN that speaks of the fund-raising.
No, stu, but neither did all Muslims. Neither did these Muslims.
Erin, can’t you see the pain this Mosque is causing so many people ? It.s not out of prejudice it’s out of unimaginable grief and pain. Can’t that be respected ? Can’t the bridge building Mosque just be built somewhere else ? How is this tolerance for the grieving ? It’s about symbolism, it’s about their pain and grief it should not be about the Mosque. There is no reason for it to be built there. None ! They could solve their problem so easy…just build it a few blocks North, South, East , or West. It’s so simple for them…….We can not bring back the dead. That is their place/
There are over 100 Mosques right now in NYC so the argument that not wanting the Mosque at Ground Zero is because of prejudice or anti Muslim sentiment doesn’t make sense. My concern is that this is not a “bridge building” effort but a way to “stick it” to the American People! I have read numerous articles about the Imam Feisel Abdul Rauf and feel he is quite insincere in his motives for building the Mosque at Ground Zero! Not only does he feel that the US is to blame for the 9-11 terrorists attacks but he his a strong supporter of Sharia Law. I do not think that we want to promote an aspect of religion that sees women as second class citizens and wants the destruction of those that do not follow Islam! He is also not willing to condemn Hamas as a “terrorist organization ” so that tells me that he is okay with supporting Hamas and the murder of innocent people, including children, in the name of his religion.
I also am very upset with Governor Patterson offering State land to this group so they will move the Mosque! State land was never offered to any church or synagogue, why are we bending over backwards to appease a group that blames us for 9-11? We need to respect the families of those lost in 9-11. Just because they have a “legal right” doesn’t mean it’s “right”. Use some common sense.
I’m not intolerant of grieving; I’m intolerant of misplaced blame, suspicion, and discrimination of an entire group based on the actions of a few.
I’m not intolerant of grieving; I’m intolerant of misplaced blame, suspicion, and discrimination of an entire group based on the actions of a few.
I don’t care about anyone other than the people who were hurt by the murderous act by “extremists”. It also affected us as a Nation. On the whole there has not been misplaced blame, or any discrimination at all. No one has ever said don’t practice your religion just don’t build a Mosque there. Even the Governor wants to find a place for them to build near there. What else can be done ? It seems we are being the tolerant ones!
Erin Kate, I hear you, but I’d not base what happened on 9-11 upon the ‘actions of a few’. There is NO DISCRIMINATION…if anything, I find this whole situation very typical of what makes our country great…we bend over backwards to hear & respect all voices. With Ground Zero…I do think those who choose to turn a deaf ear & a cold heart are those who have decided that ‘building their Muslim bridge’ trumps the 70% of New Yorkers for reasons other than the right ones. As I tried to point out earlier…the Pentagon built an interfaith chapel for ALL - in memory of those lost in their 9-11 attack.
As those who are now focused on what is driving this Imam are finding, he is NOT willing to at least have a dialogue, but to continue to claim HIS RIGHTS to be anything but forthcoming w. concerns that are legimate. It’s public record that he has raised less that $20k for a projected $10m mosque…& stated he could & would take monies from the Saudis or Iran. If that doesn’t raise ‘suspicions’, I’d don’t know what would. (I’m still waiting to see a crowd of Muslims parading/protesting to do the RIGHT thing in the name of peace & good will.)
My wife and I were talking about this and we both feel the same way. She brought up a very good point. Most people have never been to ground zero. That ground is sacred. When you look at the whole in the ground and the countless hand written notes from family members looking for their Son, Daddy, Mom, Roommate and so on. It’s eerie and heartbreaking. I grew up in New York and my father helped build the Twin Towers. He took me up to the top floors before they were enclosed. What a sight…..Looking out and seeing the clouds below you.
This is rubbing salt in our wound. I saw an article today that said the demands by the developer to move are nothing short of extortion.
I have more to say but not much time at the moment, but I just wanted to clear up for Ann: I wasn’t saying that all objections to the mosque had an element of anti-Muslim prejudice; I was saying that, contrary to what someone had indicated above, some of the objections are based on religious bigotry. I’ll also say that I don’t believe the majority of the objections are from people who would be actually hurt by the mosque’s location (whether they be relatives of victims or NYers); the majority of objections are politically-driven, and I share Anya’s distaste for that.
Stu, post #28, I agree 100%.
ErinKate, this Muslim group is not being blamed for 9/11. It is accused of being insensitive to the grief of the families. They are insensitive! They are not considering what that mosque symbolizes to the families. How can that possibly be a center for peace when it is so disturbing to these families?
You would have to say that the families are being over-sensitive considering all of the factors involved. Who thinks that these families are being over-sensitive? Their grief is real and should be respected.
It is a grave site.
My own feelings are the same even if this were the nicest possible group of people on earth to ever build a mosque/cultural center. It could be Santa Claus behind the building of the mosque, it should be built elsewhere.
And yes, there is probably too much political hay to make of the whole thing. Also shameful. That doesn’t mean the mosque shouldn’t be moved elsewhere.
For me it boils down to whose feelings matter more regarding this location: the muslim groups’ or the victims’ families?
I know who has the legal right. Who has the moral weight on their side? To me, in this case, empathy should guide actions.
One more quick thing: the thinking of the families of 9/11 victims is not a monolithic thing – I don’t think it’s accurate to say that the majority of the families object to the mosque. I’d like to repeat a point that Erin Kate and I have both made: there were Muslim victims who died in the World Trade Center (by one count I saw, 25, though I’m not sure how accurate that is). I would not think those Muslim victims’ families would find a mosque offensive, insensitive or objectionable.
Ann, I’d have to do some more research, but the issue I have with your Catholic/Auschwitz analogy is that I think the objections had to do with the Catholic Church’s complicity in the Holocaust. The analogy would work better for me if the objections to the convent had to do with the misdeeds of individual Catholics. I would not expect the church to be held responsible for the behavior of individual Catholics, and I don’t expect the Muslim religion to be held responsible for the behavior of individual Muslims.
And that is what’s being done here, IMO. I can understand the idea of the family of a WTC victim blaming Muslims for the attacks. But it’s not right, and understanding is not the same as condoning. By saying that the location of the mosque hurts’ victims families, you are conflating these terrorists with whole religion of Islam. I don’t see how you can say you aren’t. (That’s a general you, not directed at a specific person.)
Jennie, you are right. What happens during this ‘silly season of August’s politics’ drives a knife into the heart of reason. 9-11 is emotionally driven, & I think the public in general is being whipped up w. totally senseless divisions! I loathe to get political…but now all voices are turning into the Tower of Babel! BUT I do believe the premise of where this mosque is to be built was hardly news worthy many months ago. I don’t believe anyone thought that the NYC Historical Board would ever unanimously reject the historical value of the confines of 9-11 that include this proposed mosque. (Yet, they too have political objectives.)
Stu, I can well understand your personal passion. What I think is too limiting is not including those who have ties that are not just limited to lives lost at Ground Zero. I can mess up what is a NYC tale of horror, & skip to our son who did 2 tours of duty in Iraq…& to his loss of 3 of his life long friends in combat.
I’ve heard the buzz around DC that if this mosque does get built…it will be tough to find the materials, much less the labor that would be needed to see completion. Now that is scary to me.
I can mess up what is a NYC tale of horror, & skip to our son who did 2 tours of duty in Iraq…& to his loss of 3 of his life long friends in combat.
All I can say is Thank-You to your Son and Honor the loss of his buddies.
pajamasmedia.com/blog/ a-patriotic-muslims-warning-on-ground-zero-mosque/
This is a long article but excellent. I know for some they think this is an illegitimate source..but give it a shot.
I suggest that everyone read an op-ed that was in the NY Daily News in which two mothers whose first responder sons died in the collapse of the twin towers give their support for the cultural center/mosque project. http://www.nydailynews.com/opinions/2010/05/13/2010-05-13_the_case_for_a_mosque_near_ground_zero_two_mothers_of_911_heroes_argue_for_a_mus.html. The first co-author is Adele Welty, whose son Timothy Welty a NYFD firefighter, died in the collapse of the Towers. The second co-author is Talat Hamdani, whose son Mohammad Salman Hamdani, a certified medical technician and NYPD cadet, also died in the collapse of the Towers while he and Timothy Welty and many others were risking their lives trying to save others. As you might guess from Cadet Hamdani’s name, he was and his mother is Muslim. Are you who find this project so inappropriate and insensitive to the victims’ families realize that you are excluding from this consideration the families of the Muslim victims? Why should Adele Welty be able to visit where her son died and be able to go to a nearby church and pray but Talat Hamdami be told that there is something awful and offensive about allowing her to pray at a mosque nearby after visiting the site where HER son died just because his murderers also called themselves Muslims? Another supporter of the project is the noted conservative lawyer and former Solicitor General of the US Theodore Olson. He is also the widower of Barbara Olson, a noted conservative commentator in her own right, who died in the plane that the 9/11 hijackers crashed into the Pentagon.
In addition, the mosque/cultural center is a Sufi one. The Sufi have, for many centuries, stood for living in peace and harmony with non-Muslims. They aren’t allied with the radicals. The radicals consider the Sufi heretics and not-true Muslims. Just last month, in Pakistan, extremist suicide bombers blew themselves up on July 1, 2010 as believers worshiped at the tomb of a Sufi saint and killed 35 people and injured 175, many in critical condition. The Sufi have supported the US in US efforts to reach out to Muslims worldwide to convince them that the extremists are wrong about the non-Muslim West hating all Muslims and wanting to isolate and destroy them. In fact, the Bush administration sent Imam Rauf to the Middle East twice in 2007 as part of this outreach. Experts are very concerned that the current furor is undermining these efforts and supporting the arguments of the radicals. The site they have acquired cannot be seen from Ground Zero and had been vacant and getting increasingly derelict since it was damaged by the landing gear from one of the planes.
As for the argument that moving a few blocks will help, plans to build Muslim religious structures are being attacked all over the country, including Florence Kentucky.
I didn’t lose anyone directly but I know people who did. Flight 93 crashed less than 20 miles from my family’s place. My brother was at Indian Lake where some of the paper debris from the plane landed. It was only by a matter of seconds that people on the ground weren’t killed. On 9/11 when they showed the hills near the crash site, those were MY hills, a range I’d seen all my life. My father’s family came to William Penn’s colony in 1750 to escape persecution by fellow Christians in Europe.
I agree with Abraham Lincoln when he said, in an 1855 letter, about the Kn0w-Nothings (who, among other activiities, torched Catholic churches and convents because the Know-Nothings believed that they were part of a Papal plot to turn the US into a Catholic theocracy):
>>I am not a Know-Nothing. That is certain. How could I be? How can any one who abhors the oppression of negroes, be in favor or degrading classes of white people? Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that “all men are created equal.” We now practically read it “all men are created equal, except negroes” When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read “all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics.” When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty — to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy [sic].<<
I know my position is not a popular one but, while I have every sympathy for those among the 9/11 families who oppose this project, that does not justify trampling the rights of free exercise of religion and of peaceable assembly guaranteed in the First Amendment to the Constitution. If the protection of those rights were easy, there would have been no need to put them into the Constitution. I will not give those who sent the assassins out on 9/11 the satisfaction of knowing that they caused us to abandon the principles that this nation was founded on.
”Why should Adele Welty be able to visit where her son died and be able to go to a nearby church and pray but Talat Hamdami be told that there is something awful and offensive about allowing her to pray at a mosque nearby after visiting the site where HER son died just because his murderers also called themselves Muslims?”
It would be very sad and unjust if Talat Hamdani could not have the freedom to pray and worship in her Muslim faith just as Adele Welty would be able to worship in her faith, but this is not really factual. As I mentioned there are more than 100 mosques in NYC and the Majid Manhattan Mosque has been holding services on Warren Ave. only four blocks from the World Trade Center since 1970. In fact the Mosque was built the same year that the World Trade Center was. Because of this and the acceptance of the many Mosques in NYC, I really don’t see any “trampling the rights of free exercise of religion and of peaceable assembly guaranteed in the First Amendment to the Constitution”! I see that it would be more unifying if they had a Memorial to the Victims of 9-11 that represented all faiths or was non-denominational.
As far the Bush Administration sending Imam Rauf to the Middle East as part of an outreach, it doesn’t take away from the speech that the Imam made blaming the U.S. for 9-11 and the fact that he supports Sharia Law and doesn’t see Hamas as a “terrorist organization”!
Wow nice speech. I was wondering when someone would pull out the other religions have done bad too.
As for the argument that moving a few blocks will help, plans to build Muslim religious structures are being attacked all over the country, including Florence Kentucky.
There are 100′s of Mosques in NYC. Seems like those were able to be built somehow. Are there idiots out there…yes…always were and always will be. Ive seen quite a few Mosques built in my area over the last few years without a problem.
The second co-author is Talat Hamdani, whose son Mohammad Salman Hamdani, a certified medical technician and NYPD cadet, also died in the collapse of the Towers while he and Timothy Welty and many others were risking their lives trying to save others. As you might guess from Cadet Hamdani’s name, he was and his mother is Muslim. Are you who find this project so inappropriate and insensitive to the victims’ families realize that you are excluding from this consideration the families of the Muslim victims? Why should Adele Welty be able to visit where her son died and be able to go to a nearby church and pray but Talat Hamdami be told that there is something awful and offensive about allowing her to pray at a mosque nearby after visiting the site where HER son died just because his murderers also called themselves Muslims?
It’s not even relevant. He was an American who was murdered. Oh and by the way they can’t go to the Greek Orthodox Church because the local government is giving them a hard time in rebuilding it. What is so hard to comprehend….there was never a Mosque there in the first place and to ignore the MAJORITY of the families wishes and the MAJORITY of the cities wishes is not right. Once again in this Country we are being asked to ignore what the MAJORITY wish. It’s unfair, it’s intolerant and it’s deliberately hurtful.
I cannot understand why people react to things not said….NO where….No where…..No where is any one denying any one religious freedom or an ability to pray or practice what one believes. Just not at this site. If push comes to shove they will be able to build it right there. Will it be the right thing to do….ABSOLUTELY NOT.
Oh yeah I forgot one thing……..President Bush was an ass on things also.
Stu-By your very words and actions, you are saying that the Muslim victims and their survivors are not worthy of the same consideration and respect that the non-Muslims are simply because of a fact over which they had no say and no control, the professed religion of their murderers. In any event, there is nothing remotely monolithic about the position of those who survived 9/11 and the families and friends of those who were assasinated that day. Many support the cultural center construction.
How far are you planning to extend this cordon sanitaire around Ground Zero? Are you planning to patrol it to ensure that Mrs. Hamdani or some other Muslim whose loved one was murdered doesn’t engage in any unauthorized Muslim rituals within that zone. It’s as irrelevant as to the existence of other Mosques in NY or that there are other places where they can go and pray as it was to overturning Jim Crow laws that there were separate rest rooms and water fountains for blacks.
So mosques were built in your area without any opposition. Any of that happen recently? There are organizations, including some of the ones involved in the anti-NYC mosque campaign, whose stated goal is to stop any additional mosque/Muslim cultural center construction anywhere in the US. The methods are fear and intimidation. Florence, Kentucky is hundreds of miles away from any 9/11 site. How would a mosque there trample on the feelings of the 9/11 families? You cite percentages to me. The purpose of the Bill of Rights is precisely to protect the inalienable rights of individuals against the will of the majority.
Holly-
I have yet to see the exact language that Imam Rauf is supposed to have said about sharia law. I have seen the clip about the role of US actions in bringing about 9/11. I have also seen a clip where Glen Beck said exactly the same thing before he decided to exploit the current issue.
I have also seen extreme Christian denominations in the US that treat women as second class citizens and advocate the destruction of those who do not follow and will not convert to their brand of Christianity. Some of these, such as the Christian Identity movement, linked to Aryan Nations, have taken responsibilty for terrorist bombings in this country. I don’t agree with such beliefs and I certainly do not support second class treatment of women by anyone for any reason but, if you put this restriction on Muslims who had no involvement with the 9/11 terrorist acts, then you are treating Islam different than you are treating anyone else and condemning them for acts over which they had no say or control, then you are discriminating on the basis of religious belief.
I notice that neither you nor Stu are even acknowledging the information that this is a Sufi cultural center/mosque and that the Sufi have been and continue to be the target of terrorist acts by the same organizations that actually were guilty of 9/11 precisely because the Sufi reject that extreme form of fundamentalist Islam.
Holly: You might want to read this article from Media Matters: http://mediamatters.org/research/201008130002, “Hannity falsely claims Imam Rauf wants to “shred our Constitution”: The article quotes what Imam Rauf said about Sharia law and the US in “What’s Right with Islam”
>.>Grounding itself in reason, just as the Quran and the Abrahamic ethic did in asserting the self-evident oneness of God, the Declaration opens with the most important line in the document: “We hold these Truths to be self-evident.” The language evokes the long tradition of natural law, which holds that there is a higher law of right and wrong from which to derive human law and against which human laws may be — and ought to be — measured. It is not political will but moral reasoning accessible to all that is the foundation of the American political system.
But “nature,” at least in the eyes of believers in God, is just another word for “God’s creation,” and thus natural law must mean “the laws that God established and structured creation on.” These span the spectrum from the laws of the physical sciences such as mathematics, physics, biology, and chemistry to the sociological and psychological laws that govern human relationships, all of which are knowable to humans through reason. Thus the first paragraph of the Declaration of Independence opens with the words “When … it becomes necessary for one People … to assume … the separate and equal Station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them” (italics added)
To Muslims, the law decreed by God is called the Shariah, and therefore the “Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God” are by definition Shariah law. It is a law that has to appeal to human reason and be in accord with human nature, informing us that “a community based on ideas held in common is a far more advanced manifestation of human life than a community resulting from race or language or geographical location.”
[...]
In 1775, a year before the American Revolution began, Alexander Hamilton wrote, “The sacred rights of mankind are not to be rummaged for among old parchments or musty records. They are written as with a sunbeam, in the whole volume of human nature, but the hand of Divinity itself, and can never be erased or obscured by mortal power.” Almost fifty years later, in 1824, Thomas Jefferson noted in reminiscing about the drafting of the Declaration of Independence, “We had no occasion to search into musty records, to hunt up royal parchments, or to investigate the laws and institutions of a semi-barbarous ancestry. We appealed to those of nature and found them engraved on our hearts.” Could the Abrahamic ethic as natural religion — Muslims’ din al-fitrah as the core definition of Islam — be any more lucidly and evidently expressed?
What’s right about America is its Declaration of Independence, for it embodies and restates the core values of the Abrahamic, and thus also the Islamic, ethic. [pages 82-83]<<
Please tell me where you see support for second class citizenship for women in that language or the extremes of Sharia intepretation supported by the fundamentalists like the Taliban?
“Islam, in short, is a vehicle for Arab supremacy. There is no interest in building bridges in the Western sense. Their bridge is a one-way path to their ideology; there is no genuine desire in sharing ideas, in understanding and respecting other outlooks and perspectives. Moreover, when Rauf speaks in Arabic, he contradicts what he says to his English-speaking audience. On March 24, 2010, Rauf is quoted in an article in Arabic for the website Rights4All, a leading educational institution of the Arabic-speaking world, entitled “The Most Prominent Imam in New York: ‘I Do Not Believe in Religious Dialogue.’” He goes on to say that “Religious dialogue as customarily understood is a set of events with discussions in large hotels that result in nothing.” Finally, Rauf says “it is clear an Islamic state can be established in more than just a single form or mold. It can be established through a kingdom or a democracy. The important issue is to establish the general fundamentals of sharia that are required to govern.”
Peggy,
Here is just one of many direct quotes from Imam Rauf. They do not come from Sean Hannity or Glenn Beck or any other person at Fox news, they come directly from the Imam himself. I have also read part of his book and he is not who he appears to be.
I am just sharing “my opinion” and I think I have been quite clear that I believe in religious freedom for all groups, and just to be really clear, just because I don’t want a Mosque at Ground Zero, that does not make me Anti-Muslim! It makes me a person who believes (as I stated before) that I do not want a Church or Synagogue or any Individual Religious House of Worship at Ground Zero. I believe that in order to unify the County and especially those of all religions who lost family members and friends on 9-11 we should have a Memorial to those who were lost there and it should be inclusive of all religions or no religion at all. If you read something Anti-Muslim in that then obviously you are the one who has issues of intolerance.
I also would be interested in knowing which Christian Identity Movement Terrorists caused the killing of over three thousand Americans ?
Stu-By your very words and actions, you are saying that the Muslim victims and their survivors are not worthy of the same consideration and respect that the non-Muslims are simply because of a fact over which they had no say and no control, the professed religion of their murderers. In any event, there is nothing remotely monolithic about the position of those who survived 9/11 and the families and friends of those who were assasinated that day. Many support the cultural center construction.
There is no doubt there are people who support the Mosque. There are more that don’t. I appreciate the fact that you know me and what I think. Please quote the part where I said they are not worthy. If I use your logic here then ALL Chritians are baby killers like Timothy McVie. A very liberal view of how others think…..Like most of your posts.
So mosques were built in your area without any opposition. Any of that happen recently? There are organizations, including some of the ones involved in the anti-NYC mosque campaign, whose stated goal is to stop any additional mosque/Muslim cultural center construction anywhere in the US.
Yes, recently. No fanfare. There are organizations that hate Muslims…..so what. There are groups that hate Jews, Blacks,Christians, Gays and so on. That’s part of free speech that you quoted. Do I like it …not at all. Just as some want to build Mosques others are allowed to say you can’t. Or do you believe like Pelosi that the opposition should be investigated.
How far are you planning to extend this cordon sanitaire around Ground Zero? Are you planning to patrol it to ensure that Mrs. Hamdani or some other Muslim whose loved one was murdered doesn’t engage in any unauthorized Muslim rituals within that zone. It’s as irrelevant as to the existence of other Mosques in NY or that there are other places where they can go and pray as it was to overturning Jim Crow laws that there were separate rest rooms and water fountains for blacks.
I don’t know let me measure it and get back to you. As a previous poster said and I responded lets just use some common sense. How about we don’t build it on a site where people were murderd and buildings destroyed. Once again going to an extreme in saying there would be UNAUTHORIZED Muslims. Please point out where that was said or even implied in any of the posts …not just mine. Rituals ?? What does that mean ? Oh do you mean like the school kids at the Lincoln { ? } Memorial that were asked to leave for singing the National Anthem ?…Just thought I’d bring in something irrelevant like you have with with some of your statements like the Jim Crow Laws.
The purpose of the Bill of Rights is precisely to protect the inalienable rights of individuals against the will of the majority.
This is not about the Bill Of Rights…It’s about what’s doing right.
I don’t agree with such beliefs and I certainly do not support second class treatment of women by anyone for any reason but, if you put this restriction on Muslims who had no involvement with the 9/11 terrorist acts, then you are treating Islam different than you are treating anyone else and condemning them for acts over which they had no say or control, then you are discriminating on the basis of religious belief.
What restrictions are you talking about ? Asking to honor our dead citizens who were murdered by not building the Mosque at ground zero. If a group did the same thing in the name of anything I would not want something built there that reminded me of them. It’s common sense.
I notice that neither you nor Stu are even acknowledging the information that this is a Sufi cultural center/mosque and that the Sufi have been and continue to be the target of terrorist acts by the same organizations that actually were guilty of 9/11 precisely because the Sufi reject that extreme form of fundamentalist Islam.
I don’t care.
>>I notice that neither you nor Stu are even acknowledging the information that this is a Sufi cultural center/mosque and that the Sufi have been and continue to be the target of terrorist acts by the same organizations that actually were guilty of 9/11 precisely because the Sufi reject that extreme form of fundamentalist Islam.
I don’t care.<<
That makes me very sad. That you can find something sinister in the statement you quoted makes me even sadder (most thinking people would reject that definition of “dialogue” and, in fact, the form of parliamentary, representative government from which the United States drew much of its inspiration IS a monarchy, the Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland). However, it is very clear that your mind is very closed and I will not trouble you any longer.
I am not calling for the government to prevent the mosque from being built in any way that tramples religious liberty. I think a very good case could be made for preventing the mosque because of zoning concerns since Ground Zero is historically important. That has already been decided.
I am calling for the Muslims the mosque to build elsewhere out of respect for the majority of the families whose loved ones were vaporized there. They are sensitive to Islamic structures because the terrorists who killied their loved ones identified themselves as muslims. That’s not ani-muslim. It’s grief and pain and completely within the scope of normal human behavior. It’s not bigotry. It’s a normal human reaction to a horror.
The majority of victims’ families oppose the mosque. It’s not unanimous. I say, let the “No’s” have it.
Jennie, you proved my point about the equivalency of the Carmelite convent and this mosque. Some detractors did say it was because of the “participation of the Catholic Church in the Holocaust.” The 9/11 terrorists did not act independently, like Timothy McVeigh (and co.) Some of them, on the same plane, had never met before. They were acting as agents of a larger organization, one that is identified as extremist Islam. They have hierarchy in their organization, too. They have leaders who teach this hateful ideology to children. They murdered US civilians to the cheers of thousands of adherents to this ideology. It was no more fair to lay guilt for the Holocaust at the feet of those Caremlite nuns than it would be to blame the Muslim group for that widespread ideology. The situation is exactly the same. But the nuns moved their convent anyway. Because their purpose was to pray for peace, not to incite hurtful accusations and open wounds for the survivors.
There is bigotry against Muslims out there, just as there is against others. That doesn’t mean that a hallowed space doesn’t require special concerns for structures built there. This has nothing to do with the free practice of religion either. I don’t have to justify outlawing mosques in Kentucky or Islamic prayer at Ground Zero to hold the position that this mosque on that block is a special case. I will only defend my opinion about the Ground Zero mosque on this thread.
Does anyone remember when Guiliani rejected $10 million dollars from a Saudi prince in the days after 9/11. Was this controversial at the time? Was Guiliani revealing his bogotry?
Peggy & Stu…you both cite exactly what is being fought in NYC. The passion is palpable & it’s exactly WHY I believe it would be more than helpful if the Imam & those who so cleverly try to speak on his behalf – CAIR – are banking on the protections of our Republic for a free pass w/o scrutiny. It is all too easy to cut ‘n paste quotes from pro & con, but again…I, in the simplest of terms, do think that 70% of those who are directly impacted deserve a fair shake from those who are NOT willing to be transparent. Namely the Iman himself. I have been following this battle from the get-go, & while I am NOT entering this w. a closed mind, it is tough to leave out the ‘me’…who quite obviously has a voice that would rather deal w. the here & now & NOT play the (D) & (R) game of this is all being GW’s fault…it is what it is.
As a piece of personal information, I received an invitation to join CAIR about 8 yrs. ago. Long before I had my e-mail out in the public domain…so I thought. Yes, I did work as a volunteer at the WH w. a full security clearance BEFORE 9-11. There were several of us who worked there together, & the only thing we could figure out is that somehow CAIR obtained a list of volunteers & put us on their e-mail list. Curiosity got the best of me after a few months of e-mail news… CAIR had a meeting that I was invited to attend - close to home. I went. When I got to the door of this ‘open’ event, I was turned away. I don’t ‘look’ Muslim was my 1st thought, but the very next day there was an article in the WaPo saying that this meeting was NOT open as CAIR had claimed, & that many who were there were turned away…b/c they had to limit the audience to those who DONATED over $100 or sponsored a student pass for $200. Like many such invites, there was NO entry fee, but there was a form for those who wished to DONATE. I did not. Bottom line…I was notified the next week by e-mail, that I was no longer welcomed to receive their newsletters. You can tell I am NOT a journalist, nor even close to an ACTIVIST, but this one touch w. ‘Muslim openess’ did give me cause to pause! Apparently I was a very small fish among many who were similarly treated. What was the meeting about? It was to be an open dialogue of community understanding in re. to building a Muslim school in our county. (NO to their using county records…they do not have e-mail addresses.)
So endeth my rant… ;0) Phew.
HB-I don’t think there was ever any effort to hide the project. The Imam and others involved were interviewed (on Fox News of all places as well as others) last year about it. As for the meeting, I don’t know why what happened to you happened.
I’ve actually studied quite a bit about the whole memorialization process over the years, especially the Enola Gay display debacle and the process of developing the Holocaust Museum and the Oklahoma City memorial. I recommend anything written, co-written, edited or c0-edited by Edward Linenthal on the subject. Such a process is complex, driven, divisive. Try to remember one thing, though, this is a Sufi Muslim facility and the Sufis are targets of and victims of Al Qaeda and its ilk every bit as much as western Christians are. Sufi religious sites and worshippers have been the target of radical Islamicist suicide assassins all over the world. The Sufis have supported and encouraged the US in the Muslim world, at considerable risk to themselves from the radicals. They deserve better from non-Muslim westerners than to be lumped together with the assassins.
As for former President George W. Bush, I wasn’t criticizing him. Let me be very clear on this point: I bitterly opposed his policies and I don’t like him, but one thing he did as President that I truly admired was go out of his way, after 9/11, to reach out to Muslims at home and abroad. His administration sent Imam Rauf to the Middle East TWICE as part of this effort. Since you’ve been through the security clearance process, you have to know what scrutiny he had to have been under before any White House, whether during a Bush presidency or any other president, would entrust him with such a sensitive mission.
The Bush family has always cultivated warm relations with people in the Arab world and 9/11 did not change that.
Wow, I don’t know how I could have been any clearer but let me state my position again: I do not feel that any religious structure should be built at Ground Zero. This includes a place of worship for any individual group including, Islam, Christians, Jews, Buddhists,Mormons, Sufi’s, Hindus, Hare Krishna. Chabad Orthodox, or Elvis Worshippers! If I left out a religious group, it is not because of prejudice, it is because I forgot them!
As far as it being a Sufi Mosque, I was not leaving out a comment to be “sinister” I just do not believe any Mosque should be built on Ground Zero. The Sufi’s have been the target of terrorism and it is very sad but that does not make me trust Imam Rauf any more.
As I mentioned before, this is just my opinion. I am not “bothered” by discussion or dialogue but I do not like to be accused of having a “closed” mind. if I read something that I felt was more compelling than my current thoughts on an issue, I would change my mind. I am an Independent and not interested in being a Democrat or Republican, so I would not say my mind is “closed”. I would also not say that (once again) that I am Anti-Muslim. I would say that I am with the 70% or more of the people who do not want a Mosque at Ground Zero, and if that idiot, Nancy Pelosi, wants to investigate me, I say: BRING IT ON!
“Sinister, Close Minded”…where do you get this stuff? You are very smart…that is obvious, but you don’t have a clue. You like to dazzle people with intellectual concepts that really don’t have any relevance to the subject. It is simple: most people do not want a Mosque at Ground Zero! Simple! I don’t care that Uncle Charlie has a beef with Cousin Billy and hates him but Uncle Charlie really like my Aunt Susie! This has nothing to do with the fact that there should be no Mosque of any denomination built at Ground Zero.
Keep the dialogue coming …unless it’s keeping you up at night.
I think that if the purpose of this cultural center/mosque is to promote healing, the group that is proposing it, would be more sensitive to the people that were directly impacted by 9/11. It has nothing to do with Constitutional rights or bigotry. I, personally, don’t care if they build a mosque there. I don’t know if I am close minded. I guess I would need someone more intellectually superior to tell me if I am
. I think the people that refuse to take into account the feelings of those that lost loved ones on that day might be closed mined. Why rub salt in their, still raw, wounds? If this is to be a place of healing and education, start with moving it somewhere else. Let the healing begin.
PeggyP. I appreciate your knowledge of what many haven’t studied. Sadly, I can not agree that Ground Zero is the only place that this bridge to understanding should be built.
My one story in re. CAIR is only a slice of local & personal experience. As would I be terribly wrong NOT to mention that our community is a close knit one here in N. Va., & we have many, I’m not just talking a handful of neighbors who are Muslim, but many who are peaceful, active, & caring members - w/o exception. While walking our less than well- behaved dog, I have become friends w. Muslim’s doing the mundane…& have had years of great conversations. My learning experience has been nothing but positive…especially after we all HEARD/felt the jet hit the Pentagon. (I was playing tennis w. a Muslim friend.) I can not, nor will I pretend to speak on behalf of any group as a whole…but I will say that those Muslims that I do know, DO resoundingly feel their love of this country is rarely exhibited on any news outlet. Why is that no surprise?
As for the Bush family, it was not out of being a loyal (R) that I chose to work at the WH. There is a history that goes beyond the presidency that I won’t define. It serves no useful purpose. You are of course correct in the history of the Bush elder having gained confidence in the Arab world. I’m sure you know the depth of his service to this country before he was President…think of his job as head of the CIA. Nasty business, but even Clinton knew the value of a good person vs. a less than adequate president. As for GW’s administration sending Rauf to the Middle East…think State Dept. & Central Intelligence. (I think we have all learned the hard way…that NOTHING is black & white in selecting the right person for a mission that seemed as important as it was to reach out to the Muslims.) My husband was close enough to know the mechanics of such a decision…I can only go w. observations. ***Before I forget, my pass as a volunteer in the WH is HARDLY on equal footing…! I apologize if I gave that impression.
Enough of me. I do read…obviously not as in depth as you do. That I can only applaud you for. I have to go w. my somewhat seasoned sense of what I believe to be right & wrong. So far, the Imam has decided NOT to be a part of this recent uproar. I have heard him speak, & read exerpts from his book – there is nothing that tells me that he is being transparent. When those who are sent out to speak for him…none will give a direct answer to the most basic of questions. It is public record that so far donations to build this mosque is under $20k…& to have him quoted as saying he will take money from anyone…including Saudi Arabia & IRAN to reach the 10M building goal. Surely doesn’t speak to any peaceful bridge building…it’s throwing the dust of 9-11 into every American’s eyes.
If I said…’trust but verify’…everyone would know where I come from. Those 3 words have enormous consequence between good & evil.
Just remember post # 2
Oh how I wish it were FUN, stu. But yes, you are right. No need to be disagreeable in the process of trying to figure out what those who have the nation’s ear can’t do in the joy of what could be a civil & uniting resolution.
Good day to you… ;0)
Debate is fun…..Subject is serious.
Back at you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
A man of few words…I’m married to one! But when he speaks, he’s worth listening to…so I am told. ;0) FYI: debate is fun, but I left that bit of ‘fun’ behind at college. I personally fear that the older I get, the less I see anything in shades of grey…to straddle the fence is painful. Literally & figuratively.
I was rereading some of the posts and I find it astounding how similar they are in the debate about the Arizona law. No matter how you state the facts people just ignore what you say and still accuse you of being anti whatever. In the AZ law no matter how much people read word for word or kept pointing out it was the same as the Federal Law just a little stronger in its safeguards people still called you anti Hispanic or anti family. You were a bigot, raciest, or what ever they would come up with to label the opposition as evil some how. Same here. No matter how clear you state you are not anti Muslim …you don’t know what you are saying because “We” do. No matter how much you say… practice your religion anywhere…..some how we are told …you want to trample on religious freedom. Please for the sake of the 1,000s of injured souls and 3,000+ murdered build your symbol of what you call tolerance anywhere but here…..some how I am called intolerant.
Intelligence does not equate to what is needed sometimes…… common sense is.
stu, apparently the ‘buzz I’ve heard around D.C.’ is not far off the mark. As unionized as everything is…especially in NYC, the construction workers are fighting mad despite the desperate need to remain employed. They are now on the internet asking for all suppliers to join them in boycotting any materials that would be required to build this mosque. I had hoped this would not become this royal battle. There is ugly & then there is REALLY UGLY for the wrong reasons. I’d say that 70% of NY’ers who are against this mosque, at this site, is a tsunami for this very diverse city! Pundits & politicians can clamor all they want, but it is astounding that the decent thing to do ultimately rests at the feet of one Imam.
I hear you, stu. ‘Common sense’ all too often becomes rife w. convoluted historical facts, that over time also gets regurgitated to fit into a new mold of modern psycho babble. Unfortunately those that are our political leaders are more talk & deaf to those they beg for support from. We, the people. Once they get their sorry arses in Congress…or in the local legislative bodies…game’s over & it becomes a blood sport. (Dare I mention healthcare, TARP, added to those border issues?)
My Dad was a union local 3 guy. NYC construction workers have been known to bring many projects to their knees. I need to chew on that one to see If I think it’s over the top. I do agree it all lays at the foot of the Imam. What a hero he could be and have a ton of good will if he moved the location. The Media would have a field day ! So I wonder why is he digging his heels in ?
Don’t even get me started on Healthcare, Tarp, and all the other crap. Another topic another day.
There is nothing wrong to question someones motives. It doesn’t make you “anti” anything. I have questions of who will be funding this mosque to make sure this mosque isn’t going to be funded by extremists of Islam. Concerns have nothing to do with being racists towards Muslims. I’m concerned and I have questions especially when they want to open this Mosque on the 10th anniversary of 9/11. I find that insensitive to the families who lost love one’s that day. The moment we demand respect we already have lost it!! Tolerance is by example and not by force!!
Peggy P, you’ve made a lot of very good points and I appreciate you weighing in. I have wanted to write something more substantive about this but I have not had time for the research I think I’d need to do to be sure I’m actually talking about it intelligently.
I’m still in “random thoughts” mode:
- I don’t know why the mosque is still being referred to as being built at Ground Zero when we all know that’s not the case. It’s being built two blocks away, on the site of a Burlington Coat Factory. No one seems to be that clear about “how far away is far away enough before it ceases to be offensive” – it would be helpful to get some answers there (though I’m not expecting consensus). I feel like people talk about it being on the WTC site, and when that misimpression is corrected (again), suddenly it switches to, well, debris fell on the roof and that’s why it’s hallowed ground. Which people may or may not feel, but it feels like a bit of a bait and switch to me when it’s argued that way. (I have my own feelings about considering the roof of a Burlington Coat Factory sacred - see my comments above about the neighborhood being a vibrant, living thing, not a giant memorial where every spot where a speck of ash fell is revered.)
- I am all for cultural sensitivity (much moreso than some people who are touting it solely in this instance, I suspect), but the more I think about it I think that it’s a matter of cultural sensitivity coming from religious prejudice, and I do have a problem with that. As sympathetic as I am to everyone who lost someone on 9/11 – and I am sympathetic – if they are hurt by a mosque being built near the site of the attacks because the terrorists were Muslim and their motives were tied up in religious fanaticism, then that hurt is born of conflating 19 terrorists with millions of innocent Muslims. Which is wrong, IMO.
- Just one last thing I’ve been thinking about, in regards to how the planners of the cultural center don’t have to move it somewhere else, but they should out of respect: we are not talking about moving a car, here. Building anything in Manhattan is an enormous, complicated undertaking. I would imagine that the decision to pull the project would negatively impact many, many lives in a very real way. I feel like some of the commentary I’ve read doesn’t acknowledge what a big deal it would be to scrap the project and/or find another location for it.
One more thing – choosing ”common sense” over intelligence, thoughtfulness and reason is the refuge of the intellectually lazy and the stupid. I am very wary of “common sense” – too often it’s used as a shield that people who can’t be bothered to learn facts hide behind.
Just one last thing I’ve been thinking about, in regards to how the planners of the cultural center don’t have to move it somewhere else, but they should out of respect: we are not talking about moving a car, here. Building anything in Manhattan is an enormous, complicated undertaking. I would imagine that the decision to pull the project would negatively impact many, many lives in a very real way. I feel like some of the commentary I’ve read doesn’t acknowledge what a big deal it would be to scrap the project and/or find another location for it.- Jennie
Yes, a big deal, but not so big that it can’t be done. Now is the time, before they even begin raising any funds. your objection would be stronger if there were a foundation poured at least. Sorry, but had the zoning board decided against it, they would have found another spot.
I always hit “submit comment” too soon!
Meant to add:
There were a few people more than 19 terrorists involved.
A big deal is being made about this and a big deal would be required to fix it. That’s because the whole thing, 9/11, is a big deal.
Lastly, when you say, “I am all for cultural sensitivity (much moreso than some people who are touting it solely in this instance, I suspect,)” Jennie, the underlined part feels like a dig. I wouldn’t say, “Of course you are sympathetic to the 9/11 families (less sympathetic than people who agree with me, obviously.)” I know you are sympathetic so I couldn’t say it. It would add nothing to my position even if it were so. it would just be an insult to those that disagree with me. Anyway, we don’t actually know enough about each other on this thread to gauge how culturally sensitive or sympathetic anyone of us is.
PS- It’s been a long time since we had a debate and I believe you won that one!
Ann, it was a dig but not necessarily at anyone on this thread. I just find it ironic that the sort of people (i.e. Dr. Laura fans) who are always telling others to “get over it” and “stop being so sensitive” are suddenly concerned about anything so ephemeral as peoples’ feelings. It’s a dig at ultra-conservatives in general, and a reference to my belief that this is simply another political issue for a lot of people (though not all people, obviously), and those people are going to line up to support their side’s position, even if it contradicts their beliefs on other issues.
I love debating with you! I am out of practice from the old days though; I did get good at (most of the time) differentiating between those I was arguing with (specifically) and those whose opinions clashed with mine (in general). I have to remember that on the internet, people (including me) always think that an aside or a dig is directed at THEM.
One more thing – choosing ”common sense” over intelligence, thoughtfulness and reason is the refuge of the intellectually lazy and the stupid. I am very wary of “common sense” – too often it’s used as a shield that people who can’t be bothered to learn facts hide behind.
Can’t help this was primarily pointed at me…..Wow..I feel like Sarah Palin ! So if you believe “‘common sense should be used in certain circumstances you are stupid and intellectually lazy? I feel it is more like you are unwilling to debate anyone who might not spell correctly or get their thoughts down with simple words yet can still make your blood boil.
- I don’t know why the mosque is still being referred to as being built at Ground Zero when we all know that’s not the case. It’s being built two blocks away, on the site of a Burlington Coat Factory. No one seems to be that clear about “how far away is far away enough before it ceases to be offensive” – it would be helpful to get some answers there (though I’m not expecting consensus). I feel like people talk about it being on the WTC site, and when that misimpression is corrected (again), suddenly it switches to, well, debris fell on the roof and that’s why it’s hallowed ground. Which people may or may not feel, but it feels like a bit of a bait and switch to me when it’s argued that way. (I have my own feelings about considering the roof of a Burlington Coat Factory sacred - see my comments above about the neighborhood being a vibrant, living thing, not a giant memorial where every spot where a speck of ash fell is revered.)
If a building was destroyed or damaged during the attack at the WTC site it’s all part of the same terrorist act at that location…clear enough. No bait and switch here. But I have noticed the cowardly AP News service is telling their staff not to use the words “Ground Zero” in articles pertaining to…..GROUND ZERO.
I am all for cultural sensitivity (much moreso than some people who are touting it solely in this instance, I suspect), but the more I think about it I think that it’s a matter of cultural sensitivity coming from religious prejudice, and I do have a problem with that.
I think you are completely wrong in thinking that the reason that people do not want the Mosque at Ground Zero is because of religious prejudice. It would be religious prejudice if they protested all Mosques in NYC! I think we have shown more sensitivity to the Muslims who want to build the Mosque than to the victims and families of the terrorist acts and they are the ones who are being trampled on here.
- Just one last thing I’ve been thinking about, in regards to how the planners of the cultural center don’t have to move it somewhere else, but they should out of respect: we are not talking about moving a car, here. Building anything in Manhattan is an enormous, complicated undertaking. I would imagine that the decision to pull the project would negatively impact many, many lives in a very real way. I feel like some of the commentary I’ve read doesn’t acknowledge what a big deal it would be to scrap the project and/or find another location for it.
Not even an issue. The Governor of NY offered to negotiate and find them another site near there. They refused to meet with him. He even offered them State Land (something that has not been offered to any other religious group) and they refused to consider it! So I ask are they even trying to start the healing or is that only a one way street ? Did you know they are basically extorting NY by demanding a bigger site that would be worth more money ? Did you research that so you can talk intelligently about that?
Oh.. yeah…. I hope while you were reading the above posts you didn’t let any of the FACTS get in your way.
For the most part this has been a political free debate. Well almost. I find laughable that the Dr.Laura crowd is some how found its way into this thread. But I guess you read what you read. This thread has been about a devastating attack on America…biggest one ever in terms of death. I hate to say that Politicians from both parties have weighed in and don’t want it built their either. Howard Dean and Harry Reid and plenty of Republicans. Needless to say it hurts me to use there names and they are doing for Political reasons….but they are on record.
This is a human suffering story. It’s about how their rights are being trampled on. Someone needs to stick up for the dead and their families.
Hmmm, I don’t like to think I am lazy intellectually nor stupid…and common sense is NO refuge I’m using as a foil. IF I thought for one moment that I could intelligently solve what is a huge dilemma, I’d be knocking on doors to be heard.
Quite simply, I still think this proposed mosque has unnecessarily become a political football. Bloomberg spends more time flying his jet & girlfriend as far from NYC as he can. He thought not. What do I believe? I believe that NYC had NO DOUBT that the historical commission would deal w. what was to be considered the 9-11 memorial site/boundaries. They passed, & if one looks into who currently sits on that commission…it is all too easy to see why they punted.
Jennie, yes I have heard many a take on this ‘cultural center’. Have you heard who will have access? That question, to my knowledge, has never been defined. The Imam’s spokesman has been clever in describing nothing in re. to what or how their outreach will be in promoting bridges of understanding. The last I heard, you & I will not have access like one who might go to a museum, library or St. Patrick’s…? In the name of ‘cultural sensitivity’, Americans can stand proud. BUT (you knew that was coming), I do NOT believe America needs to be the ONLY beacon…in this new world order. In my 7 decades I have seen our own culture being hit hard in this PC- think. There is room for all, but whether it’s a delapidated Burlington Coat Factory…or an empty warehouse, it is what it is. A building that landing gear was found on. Why not an interfaith chapel for all, as I’ve too often repeated that the Pentagon did as their outreach. ( There is a mosque 5 blocks from what was the World Trade Center.)
While you are correct – just moving in NYC is a major undertaking, I am married to an architect – the renderings have been done, but the footprint does not care where it rests. Again, if what is published public record…this mosque is far from reality. $10M is a laugh. You can’t buy a brownstone for that, much less build one floor, to code, for what has been proposed. Sorry I digress…
I’ll let this go, yet I leave with the reminder that the United States of America is STILL at war in 2 countries, well 3 w. Pakistan. I do believe - ’trust but verify’ served us well during the Cold War, & if this Imam had the appropriate sensitivity to our history…he’d be a hero IF he understood it is the in-your-face lack of transparency that casts unfounded doubts into motives of the worst kind…& that we are still at war w. radicals. Muslims serve in their US uniforms, proudly.
Over & out… ;0)
HB-I respect your feelings, but to say that one is cannot be prejudiced against Muslims unless one is opposed to all mosques anywhere in NYC is simply to try to define the problem out of existence. This is a congregation that has lived in peace in this neighborhood for many years, long before 9/11, but they now appear to be presumed guilty of being anti-American, insensitive, being a potential terrorist training center, etc. What if they try to “compromise”? Do you think the people who are demanding that they move elsewhere will buy the location from them? What if they find a place that is 6 blocks away? Where is this land that the Governor wants to swap? How far is this congregation expected to travel from their homes and businesses in order to pray and use the facilities? If Florence, Kentucky, hundreds of miles away is freaking out over a plan to build a mosque there, are you sure that the same people who are currently whipping people into a frenzy won’t then up the ante? I’ve read an interview with some of the people involved in the project and, yes, they made a very serious mistake, that after living, working, and worshipping in that neighborhood, that “our history” was something that included them. Why is any of this happening to them? Because they are Muslim and so were a bunch of murderers. However, so were a significant number of victims, and they and their families appear to be excluded from the 9/11 families whose feelings are to be considered.
I don’t know if non-Muslims will be allowed in the prayer areas. My understanding is that Mormons do not allow non-Mormons in the consecrated areas of their temples.
There is nothing “new world order” or PC about my views. I have spent practically my whole life in Pennsylvania, which owes its very origin as a colony to being a place that offered religious diversity and refuge to those who fled persecution elsewhere, in many cases because they weren’t the right kind of Christians. My paternal ancestors were among those who fled Europe to come to the Quakers’ sanctuary. The founding fathers did see us as something special, something to set an example. As Tom Paine said in “Common Sense:” “We have it in our power to begin the world over again. A situation, similar to the present, hath not happened since the days of Noah until now. The birthday of a new world is at hand, and a race of men perhaps as numerous as all Europe contains, are to receive their portion of freedom from the event of a few months.”
As for the cost, it might be because, in nearly 10 years, they haven’t been able to find a buyer for the building until now.
HB-BTW, in considering the role that Fox News and the newspapers and TV stations owned by Robert Murdoch’s NewsCorp as well as former Mayor Giuiliani, including waxing indignant that the Imam made a statement that said that US policies played a role in creating the atmosphere that made 9/11 possible (which Glenn Beck also said before he pretended he didn’t), you might take into account that the largest shareholder in News Corporation outside of members of the Murdoch clan is Saudi Prince Alwaleed bin Talal. As CNN reported on October 12, 2001, “NEW YORK (CNN) — Mayor Rudy Giuliani said Thursday the city would not accept a $10 million donation for disaster relief from Saudi Prince Alwaleed bin Talal after the prince suggested U.S. policies in the Middle East contributed to the September 11 attacks.” By the standards imposed by some opponents on the Imam and his congregation, does this make News Corporation a terrorist organization or one that should have no functions where any piece of debris from 9/11 landed?
This is a congregation that has lived in peace in this neighborhood for many years
Maybe I missed something, what Mosque was destroyed to misplace these people. ?
but they now appear to be presumed guilty of being anti-American, insensitive, being a potential terrorist training center, etc.
Who on this Board said this ? Where was this conversation ?
Where is this land that the Governor wants to swap?
Hard to know that if they won’t sit down with the Governor. Isn’t about building the Mosque. If it would calm fears or soothe people’s feelings why not? This congregation…can’t travel a few blocks away? I forgot NYC is a tight community all living and working in a 4 block area.
If Florence, Kentucky, hundreds of miles away is freaking out over a plan to build a mosque there, are you sure that the same people who are currently whipping people into a frenzy won’t then up the ante?
People are in a frenzy over the intolerance of the Imam who won’t be tolerant to the sensitivities of families of murdered love ones and don’t forget the ones still dying. There is a Jewish School in my area that wanted to expand and there was a huge community fight over it. By your logic and others it would be Anit-Semitism that would be behind it,which wasn’t the case at all. Congestion, parking issues and traffic were the reasons. Probably some on this Board would read some “hidden racist agenda” into it!
By the way even if it was only one Muslim killed in the WTC, it was an American that was Murdered. The fact that it was Muslim fanatics and many of them….the first WTC bomb, the beheading all over the world, the enslavement of the people of Sudan and the various other murderous attacks in this country attributed to them and so on and so on..have hijacked a religion. Not my fault. Do I blame all Muslims..absolutely not..but they do bear some responsibility as we all do to stand up to this form of radical behavior.
I don’t know if non-Muslims will be allowed in the prayer areas. My understanding is that Mormons do not allow non-Mormons in the consecrated areas of their temples.
Mormons are not building a Temple at Ground Zero.
There is nothing “new world order” or PC about my views
News flash…they are!
Stu-
I am in awe at your ability to rationalize away anything that challenges your position. Muslims, including the Imam himself, have stood up against everything that you want them to do but that will clearly never be enough for you.
The Imam’s own family has been victimized by Muslim extremists. When his father was head of the Islamic Cultural Center in DC in 1977, he and Imam Rauf’s mother were held hostage along with others for approximately 36, when domestic Hanafi Muslim extremists attacked the B’Nai B’rith headquarters, the Islamic Cultural Center, and the DC District Building where two died and Marion Barry was wounded. Imam Rauf has written against what he regards as extremist perversions of Sharia, including stoning, beheading. His wife does not wear so much as a head scarf and is an active voice in her own right. He has repeatedly traveled into Middle East defending the US and facing young Muslims who think he’s a sell-0ut for doing so. You’ve made it clear, no matter how much you protest to the contrary, that nothing he or his congregation will do will never be enough unless they give up their dream and build elsewhwere, that sensitivity requires giving some, not all. not just a voice but a veto.
Without seeing the nature of the protests about the Jewish school in your area, I can’t and won’t call it anti-Semitism. It might well be the same if it were a public school. However, the same is not true of the Park51 project.
However, I have spent sufficient time on you already. Goodbye.
Bleh, I don’t like the digs or sarcasm directed at anyone! It discourages others from joining in. There are other people who avoid these discussions for that reason and I would like to hear from them. I have been known to change my mind.
I understand both sides of this debate. I love religious freedom and have seen it attacked, so I understand the vigilance my opponents are using to protect that right. I still think the Imam should move his mosque.
The very large group of people who are associated with the 19 terrorists and applaud their slaughter of the innocents at Ground Zero are almost 100% Muslim (not Ward Churchill, lol.) That’s unfortunate for the much larger group of Muslim people who completely disagree with these maniacs and are innocent of any violence against anyone anwhere. It is unfortunate because their mosque has become symbolic of the inspiration for that vile act of terrorism. Symbolism matters.
Are the families being too sensitive and unfair? Sure, it is unfair if they equate this mosque with those terrorists, but I have to say this, so what? It’s normal to make unfair associations, to ‘read’ a symbol incorrectly when something devestating and horrible has happened to you. It happens all the time, and in our “shades of grey” world we make allowances for it. It’s common sense.
When people are traumatized, we respect their pain and grief. The bigger the trauma, the greater the allowance made to accomodate them , if it is feasable.
We don’t like that a woman who was raped by a man of another race crosses the street to avoid all men of that race for a few years later. But we do understand her actions. We understand why the Jews don’t want a Catholic convent near the site of a concentration camp, even though nuns of that order were murdered by the Nazis, too.
I cannot for the life of me make any sense of why this mosque can’t be moved elswhere. Are they taking a stand against anti-Muslim bigotry? Maybe that stand needs to be made, but not at the site that is already commemorating the murder of thousands of Americans. The site is already dedicated to another purpose.
Again, I hit submit before I was done!
There is some mention of the thriving businesses in the neighborhood. I think the point is that a Mcdonald’s and a Starbucks on the site means it is not hallowed ground. I disagree.
If the terrorists were acting in the name of Starbucks and McDonald’s, I’d oppose these businesses (even if the terrorists were from innocent franchises like Dunkin Donuts and Burger King.) Unfortunately, the terrorists were acting in the name of a form of Islam. Hence, I understand why victims’ families object to a mosque (not to prayer, just to a building with obvious symbolism that is built right there.) If no one knew why the terrorists did what they did, I doubt anyone would have a problem with the mosque, even knowing the terrorists were young, Arabs, men, Muslims. You see, it’s what inspired the terrorists that becomes a reminder/symbol that opens wounds for the families.
Didn’t these terrorists object to capitalism? Then it is entirely fitting that a thriving business district should spring up in that hallowed space.
I remember in the week that followed 9/11 Chris Matthews interviewed a young New Yorker who is a member of the carpenter’s union. That young man said that they should build THREE towers TWICE as high as the original twin towers.
For those that disagree with me, I have a question. Would you have a problem with groups who oppose the building of a mosque in the foot print of the actual World Trade Center complex (Tower One, Tower Two, tower Seven, etc.?)
Well said, Ann!
PeggyP, I appreciate, along w. others, your passion for history. That’s exactly why I have TRIED to keep my input - personal. We can assign those who have a hand in reporting the news to ultior motives…I know Murdoch’s been a target, but please know I do not garner my news to fit my own template. For what it is worth, I read the WaPo & the Wall St. Journal papers (not online) every day. As for broadcast news…I do enjoy Greta on FOX & the local ABC newscast. As may be obvious, I use the computer more like a 3rd grader. It has been my sole communications w. our Navy son.
I’d like to think I have a more than savvy take on what is happening in NYC w. this mosque. Again, my own perspective is different because of what comes across our own threshold in the way of life experiences…in other words, our own family history that isn’t driven by those who scream the loudest on the steps of Capitol Hill, or those who rely on history books’ accounts from the beginning of time…to make a point.
If I revealed that my uncle was a one term mayor of NYC w. a (D) beside his name…say anything to you? It’s far from defining me. I could go further, but when he served I was actually knee-hi to a grasshopper, BUT not too young to remember dinners devoted to current affairs. The ears have always been wide open as well as the mind. NO way do I presume my views are the only way for others. Believe me, I have been wrong more times than I have been correct about issues. Quite frankly, I love a good debate…but unlike those who’ve come to IW, I am sorely lacking in getting thoughts from brain to the keyboard. (Just as I got use to cold dinners as a child. ;0) )
9-11 framed a new world for all of us. It is painful that too many seem to forget just what happened, & why. Without getting into who is & who is not to be trusted b/c of religion or political bent…I would like to see those who were DIRECTLY impacted at the 9-11 site, be heard for the right reasons. So far the din is deafening, & the Imam has the whole nation waiting to use what I would call just plain old common sense…hopefully an American way of problem solving. It won’t be crushing his dreams…his mosque will be built, but repectfully, elsewhere. Human compassion need not be defined by his dreams alone. It is a 2-way street!
Thanks, Wendy!
So far the din is deafening, & the Imam has the whole nation waiting to use what I would call just plain old common sense…hopefully an American way of problem solving. It won’t be crushing his dreams…his mosque will be built, but repectfully, elsewhere. Human compassion need not be defined by his dreams alone. It is a 2-way street! -HB
And there you have it, my position in a nutshell. Thanks, HB.
HB-I never said you only got information from Fox News and/or any other News Corp. holding, although they are certainly dominating the news coverage, or are closed minded in any way. I simply disagree with you on some significant issues on this. As for Fox News, as Jon Stewart and others have pointed out, if one applies the standards to it that it applies to the Park51 project and Imam Rauf, there is a far stronger case to be made that Fox News and News Corporation is/are a terrorist(s) front. That’s as absurd as the charges their commentators have made but way too many people (and I’m NOT including yours in this) believe every word they say.
One thing you said struck a chord with me, “Human compassion need not be defined by his dreams alone. It is a 2-way street!” Well, so far, I have seen very little compassion among opponents for the feelings of a congregation that, at least up until now, thought it was part of a community in which it peacefully participated for decades. IMHO, that congregation is basically being pressured, even intimated, by some, into moving their cultural center elsewhere (and, if they do, do you actually think the congregation will not be far behind). I have seen blatant character assassination of Imam Rauf, whose parents had been taken hostage by the Hanafi militants in DC in 1977 and who has frequently risked his life by publicly speaking on behalf of moderation and the US to young people here and in the Middle East, and who was one of the clergy who gave eulogies with the approval of the family, at Daniel Pearl’s memorial service in 2003 at the Manhattan Synagogue, B’nai Jeshurun, with Daniel Pearl’s father, Professor Judea Pearl, in the congregation. The text of Imam Rauf’s eulogy is on the B’nai Jeshuran website at http://www.bj.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/daniel_pearl_memorial.pdf. This is the most critical part though, any emphasis is mine:
>>O Lord! Today we have come to pray for the soul of Daniel Pearl, who lost his life in the name of religious difference. We have also come to fulfill the spirit of the prayer his father Judea Pearl made in an op-ed piece in Thursday’s Wall Street Journal, (and I paraphrase)for a “multi-faith statement against intolerance (of any against any) on the basis of religion, towards a unifying global spirit of the day that will serve as catalysts for building alliances against the rising tide of fanaticism, dehumanization and xenophobia.”
O Lord, we are people who are not usually in the same room with one another, and all too rarely with an opportunity to talk to each other.
We are people of faith and perhaps people without any professed religion:practicing and perhaps not. Today we are members of many faiths: Christian, Jew and Muslim. But we have come together to confirm the common ground of our faiths, on which we all stand united, to assert our common values, values that constrain us to act in the highest sense of what it means to be human.
We are here to assert the Islamic conviction of the moral equivalency of our Abrahamic faiths. If to be a Jew means to say with all one’s heart, mind and soul Shma` Yisrael, Adonai Elohenu Adonai Ahad; hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One, not only today I am a Jew, I have always been one, Mr. Pearl. If to be a Christian is to love the Lord our God with all of my heart, mind and soul, and to love for my fellow human being what I love for myself, then not only am I a Christian, but I have always been one Mr. Pearl.
And I am here to inform you, with the full authority of the Quranic texts and the practice of the Prophet Muhammad, that to say La ilaha illallah Muhammadun rasulullah is no different. It expresses the same theological and ethical principles and values.
We are here especially to seek your forgiveness and of your family for what has been done in the name of Islam.
But as you have asked of us, we are here to go further, and to affirm the value of this service today both for the shaping of shared convictions and for the action that we can accomplish together. Further, we intend to deepen our belief that effective public engagement around difficult issues facing our faith communities can include,and in fact, requires, our collective religious voices. From our own experience, we affirm that multiple religious voices praying together can serve our deepest common good.c
onversations must continue where many end. Some of us may be suspicious of the religious voices and believe that these voices ought to be kept out of public discussion and policy. Others may fear that entering into constructive dialogue and common ground with the “other side” must be wrong, sinful or at best useless and naïve. We disagree.
We are here both as individuals and as representatives of our religious traditions. We must take advantage of this unusual breadth, a breadth not only of religion and geographical views of each other, but also of social vantage points. We have experienced the reality that there is a multiplicity of religious voices in the world, and have come to affirm, importantly, that common religious, moral and policy grounds can be found in an exchange among these voices.
Where once many of us may not have cared to speak, much less listened, to others, now we must. We shall find ourselves with good people, of deep faith, and we shall locate many important, shared values: justice, compassion, service, faithfulness, and love. Though many of us may have come skeptically, we have all come seeking to leave with hope and expectation of Your guidance, O Lord, and with a determination to encourage others to embark on this kind of fruitful exploration. For ourselves, and in different ways, we want to continue to convey the message
not only among us, but also in the communities and arenas of service to which we shall be returning, that we are all created imago Dei, in the image of God.
We pray that you admit the soul of Daniel Pearl into Your acceptance.
We intercede with You that You place us on the path of righteousness and direct us towards actions done in fulfillment of the commandment taught by Your Great Prophets and Messengers Moses, the Messiah Jesus son of Mary, and Muhammad, which is to love our fellow humans as we love ourselves. Help us O Lord, in courage and commitment, in reducing ethnic and religious hatred, strife and violence, to build the kingdom of heaven on earth <<
I think Imam Rauf has traveled far down that two-way street; where’s the movement at the other end?
The movement, at present, is the site of the proposed mosque has been used for Muslim prayer…as we speak. In other words, the owners of this bldg. already occupy it, & have w/o any problems. It’s the fact that this useable bldg. will need to be blown up & a new, much larger bldg. will overwhelm what already exists according to their renderings. May I cop out, & say the devil is in the details…NOT the religious intent or the much overblown ‘cultural center’…it is all about making a statement that is agreeable to those who are impacted.
With that I exit…as I respectfully don’t want to be confrontational about what I do know to be fact, as it exists today. It is possible to come to a mutual understanding for those who have much more invested locally, than I do.
Cheers PeggyP…I again, appreciate your historical sensibilities. We do learn by history…but this is NYC’s to live with. ;0) I still believe it is possible to put all of this to rest in the best of respect going down that rare 2-way street that realistically is rare in that city.
HB-If yours were the predominant position over those who do not support having the cultural center/prayer rooms at Park51, I would disagree with some (not all) of your positions but I wouldn’t feel the concern and even fear that I do in response to much of the attacks on the project.
As I’ve said previously, the whole issue of memorialization and sacred spaces has long been an interest of mine, well before 9/11, when the only major dispute over the WTC property was architectural/engineering theory. There are ways of facilitating the process, but, where so much pain and emotion is involved, passionate disagreements, particularly among the group consisting of individuals who survived and the loved ones of those who, tragically, did not survive, cannot be avoided. Look at the Vietnam memorial. Now it is widely admired and even loved, but, when it was first proposed and built, there was fervant, passionate objections to the design (one critic, a Viet Nam veteran IIRR, called the design a “black gash of shame”). I’ve been heavily involved in the public comments, meetings, etc. that produced the new Visitor Center/Museum at Gettysburg National Military Park where, again, passions ran high, especially over the issue of expanded interpretation. Expanded interpretation required getting the the long-established interpretive model that mostly strictly stuck to who shot who where with everyone being described as noble, brave, and fighting for their principles. Under the old way, any discussion of how the Civil War came to be and why all of these brave, noble, principled men were divided up into two armed camps killing each other in massive numbers (625,000 estimated dead soldiers/sailors. If the same % died in combat now, the death toll would be 6.2 million; as horrific as 9/11 was it did not break the horrible record of the Battle of Antietam as being the bloodiest day in US armed conflicts.) was strictly forbidden. Expanded interpretation gets into the how and the why and there are those who bitterly oppose it. You wouldn’t believe how heated those debates were and still are even though the very last Civil War veterans died in the 1950s,
If the project remains at the proposed site, as I believe it will and should, that, as you correctly note, is just the beginning of the process; not the end. I think the mayor is in a good position with regard to the congregation to facilitate including non-congregation members from the survivor families and/or the neighborhood in the planning process, including design, of the interfaith cultural center. I think one person who already has connections with Imam Rauf and is a leader in improving Jewish-Muslim relations, Professor Judea Pearl, Daniel Pearl’s father, would be an excellent person to be involved as well as someone from the Catholic Archdiocese of New York and from the Episcopal Cathedral of St. John the Divine (the latter of which has excellent relations with Imam Rauf and his congregation).
I don’t know if the current building is salvageable. They often don’t know for sure until they get in and expose the structural elements of the building. When they did the restoration of the Wills House in Gettysburg (Lincoln stayed there the night before he gave The Gettysburg Address), the engineers came to the conclusion that the only reason the building was still upright was inertia. The building is brick and the mortar had completely turned to powder.
I hope you do stay involved, because, with any large project like this, reasoned input is very important.
PeggyP, I am in awe at your ability to rationalize away anything that challenges your position. Muslims, including the Imam himself, have stood up against everything that you want them to do but that will clearly never be enough for you.
I’m sorry you don’t see any of my positions as valid….So maybe you also suffer from “closed mindedness” too. I try to point out that most of the rebuttal on this thread never addresses what is being said and is usually some extraneous subject that has no bearing on the subject we are talking about.
I do applaud your Historical knowledge …it’s quite impressive but sometimes it has not had any relevance to the subject.
I too do not get my news from only Fox, but throw in the NY Times and yes the Huffington Post, just to name a few. I am not a Republican though I do lean more towards a conservative view point. I am an Independent because I feel no need to support any party because they are both out of touch.
By the way the Imam’s wife, Daisy Kahn, is very impressive and does put a good foot forward.
I did forget to ask….When you attack Fox and Glenn Beck why don’t you also include Rachel Maddow, Olbermann, Ed Schultz etc.? GE which owns CNBC, NBC and so much more …are the News Organizations culpable in the Iran and Iraq War ?
Suffice to say both sides have “clowns” mixed in with the truth.
Stu-Because, the issue at hand, are the attacks on the proposed cultural center/prayer rooms and Fox is leading the charge to defame the congregation and, particularly, Imam Rauf. My point is that Fox News/News Corps can’t pass the very test that they are imposing on Imam Rauf and his congregation to attempt to “prove” the latter are allied with terrorists. I don’t always agree with Olbermann (I stopped watching him for a while for his attacks on Hillary Clinton during the compaign which I thought were very harsh and unfair) or Maddow and I just have never liked Schultz so I don’t watch him, but I haven’t seen any of them engage in the kind of egregious and demonstrable falsity and/or reckless disregard of the truth or falsity that Fox News and/or News Corp are currently engaged in.
There’s been quite a bit written about the culpability of all or most of the mainstream media organizations, including but not limited to ABC, NBC, CBS, CNN, and Fox, in accepting the Bush administration’s assertions so unquestioningly. Some of the critical analysis has come from correspondents who admit they dropped the ball. I hope you aren’t repeating the old canard about Iraq and/or Iran and GE. The US once help support Sadaam Hussien and Osama bin Laden (mostly unwittingly it appears) when the former was fighting Iran and the latter was a part of the effort to expel the Russians from Afghanistan. Alliances are literally written in the sand in the Middle East.
I don’t see the people whipping up this frenzy as “clowns”. They are playing with emotions and forces that are very profound and passionate and which they can’t possibly control and abusing the trust that their viewers, rightly or not, place in them.
BTW, for those who claim that Imam Rauf supports the harshest versions of Sharia law should not that Daisy Khan not only is not veiled, she doesn’t even cover her hair. She also speaks for herself in public interviews. None of that would be permitted in a very strict state like Saudi Arabia.
Well, this should decide the debate!
From the Jerusalem Post (jpost.com):
“Miss USA Rima Fakih said she opposes the Ground Zero mosque on this week’s broadcast of American news show Inside Edition.
Fakih, 24, was born in Lebanon and raised in Michigan, and is the first Muslim Miss USA
“I totally agree with President Obama with the statement on the constitutional rights of freedom of religion,” she said. However, she advised the mosques planners to consider the feelings of those who lost loved ones on 9\11.
“It shouldn’t be so close to the World Trade Center. We should be more concerned with the tragedy than religion,” said Fakih.”
I did see this yesterday and that Ann, is exactly how I feel.
Peggy,
This debate can not rest on what Fox News says. That’s no reason to discount the opinion of those of us who came to this conclusion without ever seeing one minute of Fox News coverage about the topic. The same goes for Glenn Beck, Dr. Laura, or Olbermann. The issue should be decided on the merits of the argument, not who espouses it.
Is this a moderate Imam, who does not follow the Koran literally, who loves and respects the american ideals of individual liberty and equality of woman? Hurray! Let’s promote him, publish his beautiful words, and visit his Muslim center promoting reilgious tolerance four blocks up the street. Let’s not do it on a gravesite that can’t be moved.
She’s a Muslim, Pam, who agrees with you. It can’t be anti-Muslim bigotry that is inspiring her.
I fear PeggyP. you missed my point in trying to up-to-date as to the existing bldg. that is to be demolished & replaced…this bldg. is/has been used daily by the Muslims. It is not condemned. It is already a prayer site. For whatever reason, NO ONE has acknowledged this fact. It is their property ! It is the renderings…an artist’s concept, that had so upset those who first voiced their dissent. Take out the religious quibble…& replace it w. the image of a very ornate mosque/cultural center we’ve all seen. It will be towering over the remaining bldgs. & the facade is as it should be…typical for a modernized mosque - in it’s architecture. As far as I know, no interiors have been revealed, only described…gym, meeting rooms, museum, library, mall etc. The STATEMENT of this new bldg. being so totally alien to the footprint of those who are impacted is predominately the problem that has been muddied over w. slings & arrows set afire. That’s WHY I made the comment that the mayor & those who have been planning what’s to be Ground Zero’s ‘look” thought, w/o doubt, that the ‘historical board’ would absolutely NOT approve of the size, scope, architecture etc. of the proposed rendering. The board punted…& their feet were never held to the fire. Yes, I have heard that there was political pressure involved…not local to NYC…the source is good, but beyond that, only those board members know for sure.
All of this has so been distorted that I have NOTHING left to add. It’s just a bloody shame too many voices, who get national attention, have lost sight of the ORIGINAL planning stages. The Iman is free to do any remodeling he wants to within the current structure…he knew that. He can continue to use the structure for prayer, he can relocate & use it soley for a cultural center if it’s not large enough. He HAS choices…many more than those who lost their lives. AGAIN, lives are lost daily defending this country & many others…from terrorist.
***PeggyP. I am familiar w. the Gettysburg Visitor’s Center & it’s mission…just last fall. We went there w. a classmate of my husband’s from Princeton, who is now a professor known for his Civil War knowledge. Over 8 hrs. of touring w. him was a thrill beyond my wildest imagination. I can thoroughly appreciate your having chosen this history as your own gift in knowledge! I ordered a Kindle just to handle the tomes I wished I’d bought at the visitor’s center. ;0)
I can’t help it but when I see statements that are so “out of left field” they just have to be challenged. This is what I find to be mind numbing when you watch a TV interview. People who just spew things that are just wacky, out of left field, or just lies.
I don’t always agree with Olbermann (I stopped watching him for a while for his attacks on Hillary Clinton during the compaign which I thought were very harsh and unfair) or Maddow and I just have never liked Schultz so I don’t watch him, but I haven’t seen any of them engage in the kind of egregious and demonstrable falsity and/or reckless disregard of the truth or falsity that Fox News and/or News Corp are currently engaged in.
Now I am not here to defend Fox News but are you kidding? You only see this on Fox ? Again I must say you are not as open minded as you say.
I don’t see the people whipping up this frenzy as “clowns”.
I want to be clear…I was not calling you a clown at all, as I have repeatedly said I think you are extremely intelligent. I do think programs like Beck and Limbaugh are clown like. These guys are entertainers first and should be thought as that.
HB-I don’t think I misunderstood you. The location is one issue and that seems to be totalling dominating the discussion and most of the heat right now. What is ultimately constructed whether it is minor remodeling, restoration, rehabilitation, a total gut job, or a tear down and rebuild from scratch and what programs, etc are provided once construction is done are other issues entirely, and there is still time and opportunity for input on what is constructed and how it is used. These are issues that have more room for compromise, IMHO, than location does.
One thing, please try to remember that Imam Rauf has experience with being the loved one of victims of terrorism, even terrorism by Muslims, that predates 9/11. His parents were hostages for 39 hours in the 1977 Hanafi Muslim (a rebel splinter group from the Nation of Islam) standoff with police in DC at B’Nai B’right Headquarters (the primary target), the Islamic Center (his father was then the head), and the DC District Building where a reporter was shot to death, a police officer was shot and shortly thereafter died of a heart attack, and then City Council person Marion Barry was wounded. They fortunately were released unharmed as were most of the other hostages, but I can not imagine what those hostages and those waiting for them on the outside endured before that happened.
HB-I should have added, I’m glad you had such a great time at Gettysburg. It’s an extraordinary place.
Thank you for your contribution Peggy, especially regarding this Imam. Despite the fact that we disagree about the importance of the location, i do appreciate all the other information about the mosque that you have contributed.
To state my position in brief, I’m anti building the Mosque that closely to ground zero. I don’t want to repeat the points already made. I guess I am just wondering if those of you vehemently supporting the erection of the Mosque at that site would support say…building a gay bar next to the Mosque and calling it something like “You Mecca Me Hot.” I heard a pundit joke about doing that and at first I thought “That is the most disrespectful thing I’ve ever heard.” I thought about how outraged people would be (and rightfully so) at the flagrant disregard of someone’s beliefs. I thought it would be pretty downright hateful.
Then I thought about the flagrant disregard of the Imam (however peaceful) of the emotions and personal anguish of the 9-11 victims. Why do I have a feeling that if, in this pretend scenario, a gay bar was built next to this Mosque, the same people voicing their support for building the Mosque anywhere would rise up in anger against the bar owner? There is nothing wrong with being gay. There is nothing wrong with gay bars. It would be about the location. Nothing more.
Accusing those who disagree of being racists and/or intolerant is just tiresome. It’s been done over and over. I find that to be intellectual lazy and see it as a ploy designed to dismiss opposing views while holding oneself up as morally superior. I could have scripted out some of these comments before they were written.
Poster 1: No Mosque
Poster 2: If you oppose the Mosque, you are anti-muslim
Poster 1: But I’m not anti-muslim, note evidence
Poster 2: Well its not necessarily YOU but people like you.
It’s a brilliant strategy that basically creates a no-win argument. Either way, those who are making the accusation “win.” Either you’re a racist or (when evidence to the contrary inevitably arises) those who have your view are racist. Seeing that one cannot possibly or legitimately deny that there MIGHT be a racist or 2 who hold the view, the argument stops. Bravo. Heads I win, tales you lose. How is that for intellectual integrity?
For such an intolerant, racist people, we sure have a diversity of people and cultures. Please, please point me to the country that is more tolerant of different cultures? Which European country doesn’t essentially demand assimilation into their culture? Which nation should we look to for leadership on this issue?
Racism exists and it’s real. It’s also wrong. But when it’s touted as the counter argument on basically every issue that arises, it becomes a straw man. Here are the facts: On Sept. 11, 2001 thousands of Americans were killed by a group of Muslim terrorists. These terrorists are part of a larger Muslim group who feel justified in murdering innocents and have done so over and over in different countries around the world. They are also hellbent on destroying America.
Now, on the 10 year anniversary of that attack, the only building that will occur is building of a Mosque, a symbol of those who hurt us. If you are being honest with yourself and really trying to tap into the emotion of the victims, can you not see how extremely painful this is?
The Imams record, the denomination of the Mosque….all of that is unimportant. In fact, if the towers had been in the process of being rebuilt, I doubt that the building of this Mosque would even make national headlines. The point is that 10 years later, we’re still fighting a war, losing American lives and are left with a giant hole in the ground. Is this really the America we live in now?
Bravo Erin!
Your post was fantastic and really explained what is going on! How many times in my posts can I say that “I am not Anti-Muslim”, “I do not have a problem with the over 100 Mosques in NYC”, and “I don’t think any religious building should be built at Ground Zero unless in is inclusive of all religions”, and then still be called “Anti-Muslim”?
It’s funny that those who view themselves as the “most tolerant” of situations like this, are often the “least tolerant” of those that do not share their view, especially when those people form an overwhelming majority.
In regards to using the term “common sense”, what seems like a solution in a University Classroom or a Law Library does not always apply in the “real world”!
I watched Daisy Kahn, the wife of Iman Rauf on Christiane Amanpour yesterday morning. She was being interviewed along with a friend, a woman Rabbi. I was very impressed by Ms. Kahn and found her to be smart, personable, and like-able. She also explained that the “soundbite” they kept playing from the Imam blaming the U.S. for 9-11 was just a very small part of a much longer piece, (makes sense, similar to Shirley Sherrod). I think if most Americans would have the opportunity to listen to her and hear that she wants to model the Mosque and Cultural Center after the YMCA or JCC they would form a better understanding of the Muslim faith and the intentions of building the Mosque.
If I were in charge Public Relations for the Muslims, it would seem like the “common sense” approach (yes I am using that phrase and I am neither stupid or a lazy thinker) would be to make the “bigger gesture” and move the Mosque a few blocks away. This would show that you are empathetic with the majority of people who do not want the Mosque built at Ground Zero and it would be a start to dialogue and understanding.
Thank you Erin. Like Holly, I appreciate what you said. You made a clear and important point about the charge of racism regarding the opposition to this mosque.
Seems we have said as much as we can about this. It is a very heated debate. For the most part a good one. As I have been thinking of this and I just started to wonder….we are asked to be tolerant of everything , Illegals crossing our boarder, the Mosque at ground zero, so on and so on. Why is it we don’t ask the same of other Countries ? Middle East to be be more tolerant of Jews or Saudis to be more tolerant of women, or Africa to stop enslaving their own people. Why don’t we insist on it….. like we are being asked?? Just curious.
Stu, my position is that I can only control myself. I only have the right to determine what I should do and what the correct way for me to think is. It’s analagous to me to parenting. Some parents are concerned about their own children’s behavior and want their children to behave correctly, morally, etc. Some parents have the attitude that it’s always the other kid that is the problem. Some people have the same attitude regarding their country v. other countries. I’m always going to be more concerned about what my country does than what some other country does.
Also, I just want to say (I wish I had time for a more substantive response) that there is a difference between saying that anti-Muslim prejudice is an aspect of the mosque opposition and saying that it’s the main motive all all mosque opponents. I feel like if anti-Muslim prejudice comes up at all people react as if it’s directed at them when it’s not. But I think it’s foolish to pretend that it doesn’t exist.
Jennie,
I agree that some people are Anti-Muslim but I think most are sincere in their beliefs that the they are not Anti-Muslim, they just do not think it is appropriate to build a Mosque or any religious building at Ground Zero unless it is all inclusive to all people and all faiths.
The only way to change people’s perceptions of a group is through their actions. If the Muslim Community really wants to get support and acceptance from others I would think that would be sensitive to the conversation that is being carried on across the Country. It does not seem totally innocent, but rather calculating that they are unveiling the Mosque on Sept.11, 2011. Talk about the “height of insensitivity”, this is the 10th Anniversary of the attacks on 9-11! Also the name Cordoba House according to the the Washington Times is not just some random name they chose:
“It is not coincidental that the mosque’s name, Cordoba House, takes after the city in southern Spain that marked one of radical Islam’s greatest conquests in Europe during the Middle Ages. Cordoba was a major center in the global caliphate being erected by the rampaging Islamists of the time – the very caliphate that Osama bin Laden and his allies seek to restore. A giant mosque was built upon the ruins of a Catholic church. For Islamists, erecting mosques on defeated territories is a sign of subjugation – the submission of infidels to Allah’s rule.”
Each side has to give at least a little if we want to move toward tolerance. I just think calling people: “Anti-Muslim” just because they have a different opinion about the location of the Mosque, does not help the situation.
Those who are still interested in this subject, a friend forwarded a piece Charles Krauthammer wrote in the WaPo on Aug.13th called ‘Sacrilege at Ground Zero’. We were on vacation then so I missed it… There was no link sent to me, but if anyone likes Chas. writing as do I, it is a worthwhile read, & a Google.
Jennie
I respect your point. It makes sense. I just keep hearing how we should be more like ” them “.
I also am getting very tired of being accused constantly of . ****phobe…..Islamo, Homo….,Hispanic, and so on. Just because I have a different point of view DOES NOT make me hate a group.
I do agree that there are always hate elements of ALL groups but people loose water in their argument when they lump everybody into the hate part of any group. When that starts to happen it becomes a dead position in my view.
I debated whether or not to post this , but here it is. Warning…..a lot of cursing. The only point for me is there are nuts on both sides but it seems only the nutty people on the …against the Mosque side side seem to make it on to the Main media outlets.
The only way to change people’s perceptions of a group is through their actions. If the Muslim Community really wants to get support and acceptance from others I would think that would be sensitive to the conversation that is being carried on across the Country.
Holly, I don’t think it’s fair to hold the entire Muslim community responsible for what the builders of the cultural center in NYC are doing.
To reiterate, I’m not saying (I don’t think anyone is saying) that anti-mosque (cultural center)=anti-Muslim. I do think that prejudice is part of the opposition, but not the sum total of the opposition. What part it is, I don’t know.
I guess I still have trouble understanding why the cultural center should be considered hurtful to 9/11 families unless they are equating Islam with the 9/11 terrorists. I think I said above that I would understand if some family members did feel that way. But to say it’s a reasonable, non-bigoted response…that is where you lose me.
BTW, the details seem hazy at the moment, but a NYC cabbie was stabbed the other day by a passenger who asked him if he was Muslim before attacking him. I’m not bringing this up to “prove” anything; it’s just a reminder that this prejudice is real, even if it’s not shared by anyone here.
BTW, the details seem hazy at the moment, but a NYC cabbie was stabbed the other day by a passenger who asked him if he was Muslim before attacking him. I’m not bringing this up to “prove” anything; it’s just a reminder that this prejudice is real, even if it’s not shared by anyone here.
I think all that proves that there are nuts out there. Even those who are bigoted won’t want to kill people. Someone who goes to that extreme is sick beyond help. If it wasn’t Muslims it would have been Jews or someone else.
Jennie,
I agree the people who are responsible for building the Mosque at Ground Zero and their supporters are responsible for moving the Mosque to another location. When I said the Muslim Community I was referring to those Muslims involved with the Mosque at Ground Zero. Of course they cannot build the multi-million dollar Mosque without financial support from Muslims in or out of the US.
I think enough has been discussed on this Board about why it is insensitive to build the Mosque at Ground Zero. As long as those reasons are not seen as “valid” then going over them again and again goes nowhere!
Yes prejudice exits against every group! Here is an excerpt from an article that was forwarded to me yesterday from a Belgium newspaper; so yes prejudice is real.
Last week, a television broadcast showed how three Jews with skullcaps, two adolescents and an adult, were harassed within thirty minutes of being out in the streets of Amsterdam . Young Muslimsspat at them, mocked them, shouted insults and made Nazi salutes. “Dirty Jew, go back to your own country,” a group of Moroccan youths shouted at a young indigenous Dutch Jew. “It is rather ironic,” the young man commented, adding that if one goes out in a burka one encounters less hostility than if one wears a skullcap.
Peggy P,
I read a few days ago the post that you had about Imam Rauf and the speech he gave in honor of Daniel Pearl. I especially liked it because I heard Judea Pearl speak last year on the anniversary of Daniel Pearl’s death. He is a very intelligent and thoughtful man and even through his pain you could see how sincere his wish for peace in the World was.
Here are his thoughts on the Ground Zero Mosque from the NY Post today:
“The father of murdered Wall Street Journal reporter Daniel Pearl says the Ground Zero mosque should be moved.
“Public reaction tells us that it is not the right time, and that it will create further animosity and division in this country,” Judea Pearl told the Jewish Telegraph Agency.
“If I were Mayor Bloomberg, I would reassert the right to build the mosque, but I would expend the same energy trying to convince them to put it somewhere else,” Pearl said.Bloomberg had defended the mosque’s imam Tuesday by noting that he gave a moving 2002 eulogy for Pearl, a Jewish victim of terrorism.”
Just wanted to share this for those of you who haven’t seen it.
Obviously, he is not asking for the Mosque to be moved because he is “Anti-Muslim” he is just using “common sense” by being sensitive to the feelings of the majority of people who are against it. If anyone has ever heard him speak or read an interview with him, you will know that he has a message of peace and unity for all people.
Holly-I hadn’t heard that, and it both disappoints and saddens me. This whole uproar has never been just about the feelings of some of the 9/11 families and opposition to the cultural center/prayer rooms has been far from unanimous even among the families. There are many who support. Professor Pearl’s statement indicates a certain bitterness that more Muslim clerics did not respond to his initiative to increase Muslim/Jewish understanding. Thank goodness, he didn’t attack Imam Rauf, just indicate he won’t be there forever. Him then turning around and embracing an interfaith center that includes Muslims at the site is just confusing. Either having a Muslim religious facility in that location is insensitive or it isn’t. How is having other religions share the facilities defuse that or dilute that?
Aside of not answering the question of how far is far enough (X number of blocks, the island of Manhattan, any place from which the towers could be seen, any community that lost a substantial number of residents (which covers a significant portion of New Jersey, New York, and Connecticut), the people who have chosen to exploit this have unleashed forces that, IMHO, will be heartened, not placated if the congregation builds elsewhere. There is an article in the Washington Post about how traumatic the blatant hatred of Islam shown by some of the most vocal opponents is for young Muslims in the US, not to mention that poor cab driver stabbed in NYC.
Recognize this. Iman Rauf risked his life when he spoke at Daniel Pearl’s memorial service. If Salman Rushdie could be the target of a fatwa from radical clerics because he wrote a book, what about a Muslim cleric who declares solidarity with Judaism at the memorial service for a man murdered by the radicals precisely because he was Jewish?
I respect Professor Pearl’s grief but if he thinks that moving the cultural center will abate this he might ask Moslems in Murfreesboro TN or Florence, KY who are being called terrorists for wanting to expand their current cramped facilities if they agree. Also, I gave you the link to Imam Rauf’s eulogy because I wanted to give you the opportunity to let a man who is being increasingly villified speak for himself. As for your examples, in your previous post, yes, anti-Semitism is rampant in the world, including among Muslims, but I don’t think moving a mosque would affect that and the actions of anti-Semitic Muslims in the Netherlands hardly justifies actions against a congregation with an Imam who supports Israel and who has publicly rejected anti-Semitism. As for the funding, are you aware that the prince most attacked for being a potential donor is also the largest non-Murdoch family shareholder in NewsCorp, the parent company of Fox News?
Thanks Holly, I had read that piece. Does come down to common decency & respect for what is considered hallowed ground. NEVER should this have become a national debate.
I find this all very curious. When Prof. Pearl uses common sense and understands that this is fueling the fire by insisting this MOSQUE be built at ground zero and dedicated on 9/11 which in itself is showing any lack of understanding or tolerance. It’s funny how this conversation is being relabel to the cultural center or what ever else it is called. It’s the Mosque that is offensive.
So when he makes a statement that supports the majority, and as much as you want to believe there is no majority on this issue….His grief is directing his statement. Why is it so hard to understand that the uproar is over a Mosque at Ground Zero. Move it, enter into negotiations with the Governor and find a place that will please BOTH sides and move on. It’s not about hate, It’s not about religious intolerance. I don’t know how much clearer this can be said. To bring up the stabbings horrible and doing what you accuse others of. The man was drunk, belonged to a Church that supported the Mosque building and he has never said anything in his background against Muslims. He is a drunk nut.
I keep hearing about the Fox news angle…..So what. Are you just surprised that Fox who is owned @ about 6% by the Prince is still reporting news anti the Mosque? Do you mean they are still reporting the negative news against one of their owners ? You mean they are acting like a News organization ?
The KY and Tenn issue is a smoke screen. One issue has nothing to do with the other. Although I think if the Mosque was moved the issue around the country might go maks to normal local issues.
The questions of where to build it. Why is it so hard to understand that all you have to do is get the sides together and they can come up with a solution based on mutual agreement. It’s a very childish argument to continue the ” How far is far enough “
Stu-I’d love to believe you’re right. That moving the cultural center a few blocks will make all of this go away. BTW, it was was always intended to be a cultural center for the community with with prayer rooms where Muslims could pray properly; my understanding of Islam, which is far from expert, is that the emphasis is on believers engaging in prayer at the prescribed times and manner, especially purification (primarily foot washing, not unknown in Christian practice as well) before and, IIRR) not that it has to be performed in a mosque, per se. The number of times that a devout Muslim must pray during the day makes it necessary that a place to pray be convenient to work and home.
You reject any attempts to link this project to any other acts of violent anti-Islamic behavior anywhere. I think you’re wrong; dangerously wrong on that. I think the radicals are enjoying this entire spectacle and telling young Muslim men that their imams and elders who told them that non-Muslims would treat them with respect and that they could practice their faith unmolested in the West were fools. All the radicals need to do is show them posters with the word sharia dripping blood or Christian ministers calling for Koran burning.
BTW, who, in your scenario, does the negotiating? There is not unanimity among the 9/11 families. There are many who support the project. There are others who don’t want any Islamic edifice anywhere even remotely touched by 9/11. You call the “how far is far enough” argument childish. It’s critical. What value is a settlement in which the congregation agrees not to assert their legal rights if they only get more controversy in return? I don’t think they should; I think its a slippery slope with the bottom out of site, but I’m not the one of the ones facing this daily barrage of hatred and insult, so, if they decide to do it, so be it. However, I don’t think your position can deliver what it promises them. I think it would encourage those forces that don’t want Muslims or their religious sites in this country at all and be used as a recruiting tool by radical fundamentalist Muslims.
With Fox, there are two points (1) They initially were favorably inclined to this project until they appear to have made a decision that engendering hysteria over it would energize the base in an election year and (2) if they applied the same tests (including funding) to themselves that they apply to Imam Rauf and his congregation, they would have to declare themselves terrorist sympathizers. It’s absurd, of course, but so is it when applied to Imam Rauf and his congregation.
Time will tell.
Peggy,
I don’t dismiss that violence can be attributed to the Ground Zero Mosque. I just think it’s not as wide spread in numbers as you claim or think, and when there is an instance of violence in New York like the cabbie one it’s not right to link that to it. I also believe that what ever violence there is from either side it should be dealt with swiftly.
The radicals will use anything. If not this then something else ….we live in an open society. Isn’t that why people are still flocking here ?
The Govenor offered to negotiate which you keep ignoring. Will everybody be happy..of course not but the Imam would be a hero and looked at in a different light if he would bend a little and be open to the discussion. By refusing to talk only makes him look unflexable. It’s not a slippery slope when we talk to each other. As I said we can’t worry about recruiting tools. There is enough out there on any given day.
I just think that instead of digging heels in…which I find a little odd but so be it….just show a willingness to talk. I don’t know if that would make things better around the contry…but it would be a start.
I do have to add that I have enjoyed your history lessons !
This is from Reuters today. I tried to send the link numerous times and then found out they have blocked the link from being forwarded!
I don’t even have a comment for this!
Ground Zero Muslim center may get public financing!
NEW YORK | Fri Aug 27, 2010 3:58pm EDT
NEW YORK(Reuters) – The Muslim center planned near the site of the World Trade Center attack could qualify for tax-free financing, a spokesman for City Comptroller John Liu said on Friday, and Liu is willing to consider approving the public subsidy.
The Democratic comptroller’s spokesman, Scott Sieber, said Liu supported the project. The center has sparked an intense debate over U.S. religious freedoms and the sanctity of the Trade Center site, where nearly 3,000 perished in the September 11, 2001 attack.
“If it turns out to be financially feasible and if they can demonstrate an ability to pay off the bonds and comply with the laws concerning tax-exempt financing, we’d certainly consider it,” Sieber told Reuters.
Spokesmen for Mayor Michael Bloomberg, Governor David Paterson and the Islamic center and were not immediately available.
The NYT editorial….
It has always been a myth that New York City, in all its dizzying globalness, is a utopia of humanistic harmony. The city has a bloody history of ethnic and class strife. [...]
The Statue of Liberty and Ellis Island are two pinnacles of American openness to the outsider. New Yorkers like to think they are a perfect fit with their city.
Tolerance, however, isn’t the same as understanding, so it is appalling to see New Yorkers who could lead us all away from mosque madness, who should know better, playing to people’s worst instincts.
That includes Carl Paladino and Rick Lazio, Republicans running for governor who have disgraced their state with histrionics about the mosque being a terrorist triumph. And Rudolph Giuliani, who cloaks his opposition to the mosque as “sensitivity” to 9/11 families without acknowledging that this conflates all prayerful Muslims with terrorists, a despicable conclusion. [...]
Once again the NYT is showing it’s lack of understanding of it’s readers, NY, and the issues. No wonder it’s stock is in the toilet.
I wonder why they did not include one Democrat who oppose the building of the Mosque at ground zero or having the ability to read it’s city.
Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf told CNN that the discourse surrounding the center has become so politicized that moving it could strengthen the ability of extremists abroad to recruit and wage attacks against Americans, including troops fighting in the Middle East.
“But if you don’t do this right, anger will explode in the Muslim world,” he later said, predicting that the reaction could be more furious than the eruption of violence following the 2005 publication of Danish cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad.
I watched the Imam on three different shows over the weekend and I was extremely disappointed in him. I really question if he is a “man of peace” or just an opportunist! First he tells Anderson Cooper; “If I knew that this would happen, that this would cause this kind of pain, I wouldn’t have done it”. Well now he knows it is causing terrible pain for about 70 % of Americans. Instead of considering moving the Mosque, he now insists that if we move it, we will suffer at the hands of the Muslim Terrorists! Basically,what I got from his interviews with Christiane Amanpour and Soledad O’Brien is that if we keep “stirring it up” over the Mosque location then there will be retribution! He also would not condemn Hamas, a definite Terrorists Organization, in any interview. If he really believed in peace and was a man of conviction then he would move the Mosque. After all, he is an American first, or is he?
Friends, we all have a responsibility NOW to make sure that Muslim community center gets built. Once again, 70% of the country (the same number that initially supported the Iraq War) is on the wrong side and want the “mosque” moved. Enormous pressure has been put on the Imam to stop his project. We have to turn this thing around. Are we going to let the bullies and thugs win another one? Aren’t you fed up by now? When would be a good time to take our country back from the haters? Michael Moore
So all of us (definitely a majority) who oppose the Mosque are now labeled as “bullies and thugs”! Just know that we are on the “wrong side” and Michael Moore is going to enlighten us! All I can say is that the guy is an ASS and is really pathetic.