By Anya
Ask and you shall receive. After complaining recently that it was difficult to find much news on J&K to fill Gosselin Chatter, things have started to heat up a bit.
No doubt about it – “The Tiger Show” continues to dominate the gossip sites, but for those of us who aren’t particularly interested in that story and are still engrossed in the Gosselin saga (and, no, I don’t know why I still am either!), there is stuff to talk about.
But…Will Barbara Make Kate Cry?
“They cried in the van on the way home from school the other day. I finally admitted to them, they kept asking, ‘Where’s the camera crew? Where’s the camera crew? We miss them.’ And I said, ‘Our show is over.’ …Eight sobbing kids driving home from school.” – Kate Gosselin
As previously announced, Kate is one of Barbara Walters’ 10 Most Fascinating People of 2009. The show will air tonight on ABC at 10 p.m. (in most markets). The above quote is taken from Kate’s interview with Barbara. Kate’s detractors have been having a field day with it – what are your thoughts? Also, will you be watching the special tonight?
It’s Not McDonald’s, but is Kate Working in a Diner Now?
Several sources reported that Kate was seen filming a segment for a possible new show in Raleigh, NC on Tuesday. I love how Kate is ridiculed and deemed arrogant for insisting on traveling with a bodyguard, yet it is proven time and again that she needs one. Seriously, is anyone followed as closely as she is?
Good News – The Elizabethtown House Finally Sells!
Good luck to the new homeowners. Walt (“It is not to gossip.”) Mueller and Jodi Kreider are your new neighbors. Congrats! 
Hailey and Jon Starring in a Real-Life Remake of “The Break-up”???
Yes, these two crazy kids are broken up (again) apparently. Hailey had some not-so-nice things to say about Jon after her deposition this week. These two have produced more drama in the six months of their relationship (wink, wink) than most couples do in a lifetime of togetherness…..
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52 Responses to Wednesday Gosselin Wrap-up
Walt (“It is not to gossip.”) Mueller and Jodi Kreider are your new neighbors. Congrats!
Thanks for the laugh! And, good luck to the new owners of the house!
well i didn’t get to see the interview b/c dish network went out due to 55 mph winds…hmph! i wanted to see this too…i will have to find it on line somewhere.
i don’t find it odd since the crew were so familiar to the kids that they would be sad in not seeing them and not filming…cause i truly believe the show was more play than anything else for the kids.
i totally want to see what kate’s new show is!!!!
i did see that the house had sold and i’m happy for them.
I watched the Barbara Walters piece. It was short (they all were, since 60-commercials/10 is probably only about 4-5 minutes per fascinating person). Besides the already revealed-revelation about the kids crying in the van on being told that the show is over, the main thing I remember was Kate responding to Barbara’s question about whether she’d take Jon back if he wanted to come back with a no (or maybe it was a “I don’t think so”). I wonder if that’s true or if Kate is just saving face at this point. I’m sure she’s angry and disappointed in him (who wouldn’t be?), but there are practical and logistical reasons that I could see a reunion being an attractive option to Kate. Plus the fact that she speaks of still loving “the old Jon”, and of wishing he might call her up some day and suddenly be that “old Jon” again, suggests a certain ambivalence. It’s probably a moot point, since I think the chances of Jon reverting back to his former self are between slim and none.
I wonder why Jon and/or Kate didn’t sit down with the kids and explain that the show was ending and why much sooner. It doesn’t seem fair that they were given no preparation for such a big change in their lives.
Congrats to J&K for selling the old house – I’m sure it ws a relief. I’d advise the new owners to keep the blinds drawn and watch out for not-Aunt Julie lurking in the shrubbery.
I wondered the same thing, about the way she told them the show was over. They’ve had enough upheaval in their lives. I guess this way, you can tell all the people that thought it was bad for the kids, that they really liked it. Although, there are plenty of things that my kids want to do that are not necessarily good for them.
I am thinking that Kate did not explain about the show ending earlier because she wasn’t sure it was until mid November when TLC did start advertising the final show. And that is around the time the Barbara Walters show was filmed.
I am glad to see that the old house sold as that is one financial burden lifted from Kate’s shoulders. It was never going to be feasible for them to move back into that house anyway; it would be hard for the kids to remember how the family was together when they lived there. And Aunt Jodi and Uncle Kevin as neighbors after the betrayal wouldn’t be that easy to stomach either.
I don’t think getting back together makes any sense for Kate or Jon. Personality wise they are not that compatiable.
Thank you for this update, Anya. I had only heard about the Barbara Walters interview, so all the other news was truly news to me. Hope this recap continues, because it sure makes it easy for me. Thanks for news on BW show, Jennie, because I missed it too.
Isn’t it odd to see that interview with Hailey, so similar to Stephanie Santoro’s and Jody and Kevin’s. The quality of the video is so…unprofessional? Is there money involved with the Radar interviews, or do people just view it as an opportunity to get their truth out there?
I am thinking that Kate did not explain about the show ending earlier because she wasn’t sure it was until mid November when TLC did start advertising the final show. And that is around the time the Barbara Walters show was filmed.
Paige, that makes sense. I also wonder if the kids weren’t told (by Kate) sooner because how do you tell them your dad stopped the filming? Maybe she didn’t want to show bitterness towards their dad or have them be mad at him? (she’s a saint if you ask me if that’s the case)
Or, how does Jon tell them he stopped the filming? I think he should’ve told them the truth.
Perhaps with both of them sitting down to tell them, would’ve been the best thing. That would require them to put their differences aside and explain it as fully and truthful as possible for them to understand. It would also require the kids to know Jon stopped the filming. Maybe he didn’t want to deal with it. (hmm, that seems like the Jon we’ve seen of late, huh?).
Just read on TMZ that TLC was given a preliminary injunction, Jon is not allowed to give any more interviews contra to his contract. I just wanted to clear something up that anti-Kate sites have seized on (and I think someone here already said it once before) that TLC did not get permits thus violated child labor laws. I don’t know what PA law is, but in Ohio, when my teens get jobs they are responsible for getting work permits. Usually, they are not allowed to work until the permit is on file at the workplace. However, I have seen kids start working prior to the permit (usually at mom and pop type places). I’m surprised TLC didn’t check to make sure there were permits before they started filming, but technically obtaining them is not TLC’s responsibility.
Erin Kate, I live in PA and when my daughter got a part time job with a mall retailer,she was 16, she was responsible for getting the work permit from school and giving her employer a copy. I think it would have been Jon and Kate’s responsiblity to get the permits and to give the permits to TLC. I don’t think TLC would have filmed without them.
Sorry, no – My family and another family are the actual neighbors, not Walt or Jodi – although they are both very nice families who live in the neighborhood. I am surprised as this site wasn’t known for meaness.
We will welcome them and are quite excited to have new neighbors since the house has been vacant for over a year. I must admit we are thrilled because we hope it will keep the crazies out of the neighborhood, I don’t expect you to understand until you and your family catch strangers looking in your windows or tramping across your property to get close to someone’s children, it’s quite frightening. I actually agree with a bodyguard but I believe the children should have the bodyguard because both parents opened their children up to danger. We welcome our privacy back — I don’t expect those that weren’t exposed to it to understand the lights, noise, car/limos in the middle of the night etc of a working filmset– it takes a ton of time to film one of those episodes– TLC had admitted in court today they filed no working papers or location papers or set aside money for the children. I found that very interesting but it certainly makes sense to us because we witnessed them filming 5 days a week, 8 hours a day and some weeks it was even more. I’m on no side but I do think the children’s best interests need to be looked into by a nonpartisan person, it would just make sense. I hope ALL of the family finds peace — let’s hope they have a better 2010 and not just the same song of 2009 only to a different tune. Happy Holidays to all.
Thanks Paula, I figured PA law was probably pretty similar to Ohio (they usually are).
also read the comments on working papers and I agree with you for the ages of your children but the PA Laws are different for small children. Also location permits I am pretty sure are the responsibility of TLC.
Some examples –Discovery put stakes to a tent (because the Kate wouldn’t let them in the house for some reason one day), in our yard and pierced our underground fencing .
We would make sure we didn’t mow when filming or children’s nap yet they had no consideration that we had children home from college and they were doing yard work at 4:30 a.m. – for the day’s shots – a violation of noise ordinances or the times they shined bright lights into our house all hours or packed up in the middle of the night for a location shoot and woke up the neighborhood. There are a number of people that have to go on those location shoots, one car was parked 3 feet into our yard for 4 days. I share this not to complain because this is the first I have written about these episodes but to share with you I, because of my personal experience, believe TLC may have been loose with a few rules and regulations. Also our neighborhood got a bad rap in the blogs and it was completely undeserved, we witnessed alot and I believe we have been fair to the Gosselins.
I can also tell you that the children were taking direction and they were working, yes they played alot as well but they worked more than TLC is telling you. I know having not witnessed it you would think this would be an exciting life for children but it changed my perspective entirely, never in a million years would I subject my family to this. I realize the Gosselin’s financially may have had no choice but in my opinion it may prove to have been a terrible trade off. Time will tell.
Etownmom2
I am surprised as this site wasn’t known for meaness.
It is called snark and we are allowed. Meaness is consenting to interviews on Radar On Line and the Today show and whispering rumors about your sister/sister-in-law because you have feelings of jealousy and want to make a buck.
I share this not to complain because this is the first I have written about these episodes but to share with you I, because of my personal experience, believe TLC may have been loose with a few rules and regulations. Also our neighborhood got a bad rap in the blogs and it was completely undeserved, we witnessed alot and I believe we have been fair to the Gosselins.
Etownmom2–how come you didn’t just tell them to get off your property? I know I would’ve,regardless of a show being filmed or not. If they were trepassing, you should’ve told them, I’m sure they would’ve moved the vehicle a mere 3 feet.
Also, I have never seen any bad rap about your neighborhood on this blog. Perhpas it’s those blogs that gave you a bad rap that you should be addressing.
By working with TLC…allowing them to film…. it does seem that you have been fair to the Gosselins. At least there seems to have been a mutual neighborly pact. But, what about those neighbors who sold out? Why would they do that, do you think? Seems to me they are the ones who put your neighborhood in the bad light by exposing it with their negative feelings and negative and sometimes cruel comments about the Gosselins.
Just wondering too, were there ever any protests from your neighborhood or papers filed against TLC for any of the intrusions you listed?
Etownmom2, I think the statement was pretty tongue in cheek. I didn’t really think it was mean. I’m pretty impartial, and I’m all about best interests of the children, but I’m not convinced TLC acted contrary to those interests. TLC expected the money to be portioned out by Jon and Kate. I can’t think of any entertainment professional who would think it would be a good idea to directly compensate the children, however allowing the parents to apportion money to the children (which Kate has said was done) I think is fine. PA labor regulations have pretty stiff penalties if they fail to adequately compensate the children. If they are found not to have properly compensated the child, they can be ordered to pay the child 150% of what was due the child. Also, TLC was under no obligation to get the permits, that was the worker’s responsibility. The thing is, TLC is a pretty major corporation (enough to hire one of the best law firms in the country), and would be well aware of the requirements and penalties. Even a second or third rate attorney (which I’ll include myself in because I am NOT a great, high powered, Ivy league attorney) would have though of a lot of these issues.
I looked up the PA labor laws (TV is slow tonight) and there is a special permit for entertainment work in PA. That permit can be issued for all medium for children over 7, and under 7 those permits are allowed but not for still modeling, oddly. Also, there is an exception for entertainment work that requires absence from school (like a family trips) would require a signature from the principal of the school and academic progress must be maintained. When a child is employed and that employment ends, the employer must notify the school district. I can’t find anything that says the permits have to be checked/verified by the employer but I’d be surprised if it wasn’t there. Again, I think it would be very hard to win against them, they probably have all their ducks in a row.
And, finally just because the website really annoys me (even though I know everyone here is smart enough to know what it is) an injunction restricts someone from acting in a particular way that harms another person (i.e. stop them from committing a legal harm like breach of contract) whereas a restraining order is usually restricting a person from harassing, physically harming, or being in the area of another person. That blog gets my goat.
Etownmom2, what is your problem? No one here has given your neighborhood a bad rap. Guess what? You are not Aunt Jodi. You are not Walt the Gossip. The criticism is not about you. No one made a blanket negative statement about that neighborhood. You, however, labeled this whole site “mean”?
Just wondering too, were there ever any protests from your neighborhood or papers filed against TLC for any of the intrusions you listed?
Theresa, this is such a great question. Remember, Jodi was on the show for much of the time they were filming in that neighborhood. I suspect her absence from the show angered a few people enough to pull out their yardsticks and start measuring their grievances against TLC.
Etownmom2, thank you for your perspective. I always wondered how the direct neighbors dealt with the intrusion of a film crew. I can only imagine what it would be like if my neighbors had people, lights, cars, noise and not to mention 8 kids roaming about. I’m not sure I’d be so fond of it. I say, if you didn’t demand TLC move their cars or notify the police of the disruption with the lights, noise, etc, your a good person. I, again, am not so sure I wouldn’t have. I like my peaceful country road neighborhood. I sit on my back patio with coffee in my jammies in the summer….. guess that would have been a dangerous thing to do living next to the Gosselins.
In Ohio, yes, work permits are given for kids under 16. Both of my children had to get forms from the school and take them to work. At the time the filming began, the Gosselin kids were not in a school system. Not sure how that would have played out for them. I never really understood what happened with the work permit, but I know Chucky Cheese kept my 16 daughter at work past midnight, a local curfew violation, but she begged me to not say anything. My son works at a local Red Lobster, to tell you the truth, I’m not even sure if and when he got a work permit. I know they don’t keep him late or violate labor laws there, so I guess it all depends on the employer or the parents who complain about over worked kids to report violations. My guess is, unless J or K reported it, no one paid attention.
Etownmom2, since I wrote the original article, I just want to acknowledge your comments. I am not going to pile it on. Others have said what I wanted to better than I could. I just want to reiterate that the post was not intended as a slam against your neighborhood. I think just about everyone here appreciates the inconvenience that the filming caused you all. I have specific objections to how Walt Mueller and Jodi Kreider (Jodi, on multiple occasions) have conducted themselves and since I have already detailed these previously, I won’t rehash. Going forward, I hope the new occupants and the rest of the neighborhood are left alone to enjoy their community.
ErinKate, thanks for your insight as usual. As soon as the judge’s ruling came down, I thought of you and hoped you would comment.
That other blog is a JOKE. “Your Administrator” is a big phony. And she seems to believe that Radaronline is reading her blog??? Now, who does that remind you of?
etownmom, I think that if you didn’t do something about the intrusions on your family and property at the time it was happening that you have no right to report on it now. Sorry but it only seems logical that if such happenings are going on and you don’t like it that you would speak to the intruders at the time. Since you did not speak of your displeasure at the time it only makes sense that you enjoyed being indirectly a part of the sideshow or it never happened and you are just another pennmommy.
You think the children’s best interest needs to be looked into and that they were not properly compensated for being on the show. First, the children are no longer on the show….the show is no longer in production so what is your present concern about that? I think it’s time you move on now, just take a ride across the WW bridge there and you will find the Hayes family. Odd they never get mentioned and accused of exploiting their kids. Not that I think they are but what’s wrong for one family is wrong for all family’s.
Second, the children were properly compensated. Kate has stated she has trust funds set up for them and unless you are willing to call her a liar that should be good enough for you and any court. Also, the kids are well taken care of. They live in a beautiful home, are healthy, and go to private schools. Even when Jon was working as an IT specialist, and Kate a nurse they could never have provide close to what they are providing now. They are being compensated in the here and now along with their trust funds. So time to move on and let the past be the past. If your yard was dug up in the past it isn’t now. They are no longer in your neighborhood and haven’t been for a year. Move on!
I ran across Barbara Walters on Bill O’Rielly and it was jaw dropping. I’ve looked online for clips – if anyone finds it please post. She was reviewing the already aired 10 Most Fascinating. When asked about Kate Gosselin, she clearly stated that Kate was smart. She would be fine. She had a talk show in the works and BW felt that Kate is good in that format. When asked about Jon she completely dismissed him as not having anything to offer.
I saw this when I was channel surfing in a hotel and only had my iPhone with me so I wasn’t able to post until now but it was the same night as the BW Special.
IMO Jon and TLC are going to come to an arrangement in regards to filming Kate and the children. I look for the Gosselin kids to be back on air Spring / /Summer 2010. They will probably pay him off in one lump sum and when the divorce is finalized he can go on his merry way and do any reality t.v. show he wants. I am glad that their home sold, I didn’t watch the BW interview but heard it was really short. You can’t get much in-depth info if from what I hear was a very short, precise interview. I’m glad that Jon has been silenced because all his appearances on ET and the Insider were getting out of hand. Etownmom, while I validate your opinions regarding the filming, it is rather late since as you stated the house has been empty for a year. There is a site that would welcome your story and probably make it a blog. That site is crucifying Kate because TLC silenced Jon. Sad. I love this site, keep up the good work.
Etownmom2, I feel bad that you were inconvenienced by TLC and the Gosselins. I believe you are nice person and that you live in a nice neighborhood. However, there is one comment you made that I totally disagree with.
My family and another family are the actual neighbors, not Walt or Jodi – although they are both very nice families who live in the neighborhood.
Given what I have seen Jodi do, you will not convince me she is nice. Jodi strikes me as the kind of person who is nice on the surface but anyone who fosters and incites hate against any individual is NOT a nice person (any surface niceness strikes me as incredibly fake).
In case you are unaware of what Jodi Krieder has done to foster hatred toward Kate Gosselin, let me fill you.
She encouraged her sister to blog about Kate after she has a personal beef with her. If Jodi did not like the way Kate spoke to her on TV, she had several options. She could have declined participating in the show any longer. Instead she decided to take the beef to the Internet. She and her sister indirectly support a hate site and feed rumors to people they know will run with them and vilify Kate. I thought this was incredibly immature and tasteless but didn’t give it too much that.
Then Jodi decided to give an interview Radar Online (for money) during which she spread rumors (regarding suspicions of Jon’s that neither have proof of to this day) about Kate. That is neither nice nor Christian nor in the interest of the children Jodi claims to love.
It is clear that Jodi Krieder hates Kate Gosselin more than she loves the Gosselin children and I see nothing nice about that.
As far as your points about TLC go, the parents negotiated a contract for the family. It was up to the parents to divide the money amonst the family members. It also came out in court that Kate has set up trusts for the kids – in my book that means the kids have been compensated.
Erin,
In reading what the PA law states, then I ask you this, since you are an attorney, would you agree there is no provision for filming of children under age 7? Or is there no permit required? Is that the grey area concerning filming? If it is the former these children (6) still are under age 7. Mady and Cara were not 7 when filming began either, correct. Also, according to the law, they cannot perform where alcohol is being served. Does that mean restaurant scenes where this is served are out of bounds for filming? I refer you to the Florida vacation scene where Jon, Kate, Kevin and Jodi were in the restaurant on his 30th birthday, and Jon appeared to be “tipsy” to be polite. We saw bottles of wine being served at the table. Also the wine served at the NC beach trip, with Jon and Kate. See (2) below.
(2) No such minor shall be permitted to perform in any place or establishment where alcoholic beverages are sold or dispensed.
(d) Application forms shall be in such form as shall be provided by the Department of Labor and Industry. Such forms shall be signed by both the employer of the minor and the parent or guardian of the minor, and shall contain the seal of a notary public and a statement that the facts as set forth in the application are true and correct.
The above is taken from an amendment to the labor laws, is not TLC the employer? In that context would not TLC and J&K the parents have had to make application?
What is amazing to me is that TLC would hire the highest profile attorney available, to sue Jon for breech, but, were unable to get legal guidance from their legal minds on minor labor laws regarding filming of minor children. Does that not strike you as odd?
Maybe, more logically what took place was, Jon and Kate formed JKIG under advisement, as a way to funnel one check to the entire family. This way they were able to hide the fact the children were individual employees of TLC. One thing is for sure they were employed by someone, either TLC or JKIG, as we have seen they were participants in a scripted reality series. I just find it hard to believe that nobody at TLC was advised on this issue. It does allow one to speculate with a great deal of certainty that TLC felt this show was considered a documentary and based on a loose reality, therefore, it was exempt. Although they claimed after J&K aired as a series it was not a documentary but a “reality” show.
Based on the fact several people wrote the PA labor department, it does also allow for specultaion that the state knew what was going on, and allowed it to happen. Then only after months J&K in the tabloid media did they announce an investigation. This was based solely on “the Mady being denied water incident.” While I do not agree with every comment written on some blogs it is safe to say that many that have written to PA have a right to feel their concerns were ignored for what ever reason, would you agree?
Also you would agree that TLC has even admitted as late as yesterday no permits were obtained. The judge told them that MD law was similar to PA law on child labor issues. TLC officials came to realize rather quickly if a violation occured it is a violation for each day of filming. If it took 2-3 days to film an episode then that could be considered 200-300 violations am I correct in that assumption? Also could a judge find a violation for each child for each day filming without a permit? How could J&K alone pay that type of fine?
Addressing the comment the money has been set aside for these children. That was done just this year by Kates own admission and that is after 100-120 episodes, at least, correct? The state should under the labor laws require a financial accounting of what the children have set aside. Is that also correct and should it be a pro rata proportion of each episode payment divided by 10? Is it too far fetched to also assume, she did so knowing the State of Pennsylvania was investigating them, for labor law infractions?
Finally TLC’s injuction victory does in no way mean the children must be filmed again, is that correct? It means only Jon is under contract and has to abide by that contract until the next ruling. I would assume if he is under contract he is also being paid as well, or has been paid for this contract period. At this point it is also important to note that TLC has said Jon would be continued to be paid under the proposed Kate plus Eight series. This should be considered when anyone questions Jon’s motives as being about money for his children being removed. While I think Jon has made some bad choices I would agree that filming this family in the middle of a divorce is not healthy. Kate told BW her children watched the DVD’s is that something she really wants them to see? I find it difficult to believe Kate would hide the tabloids from her children at the store but allow them to watch this messy divorce unfold on a DVD.
Post this if you want I am only asking for some clarification from Erin as a legal expert and not here to challenge the entire Gosselin concept, or to challenge her.
He! I’m not a legal expert! Lawyer, yes, but by no means expert on much of anything except how to complete a fee application to get paid. Also, your tone is rude so I debated blowing you off, since I’m sick and cranky. But here goes.
There is a provision for under 7 for entertainment work, but I can’t find it right now (sorry, I’ve been throwing up all day and I just don’t have the energy). If the child is under 7 years of age there are restrictions on the type of media (no print, I believe), plus extra protections in place for their health/safety/welfare.
The section you speak of has to do with minors performing in bars, i.e. a band of teens who wants to perform in a bar. It is allowed, it just has to be approved first by the DOL and the parents. I don’t think that this is going to call that into play, since this is a documentary type show not a performance. I think legislative intent would be pretty clear if you looked into it, plus if the show is a documenting of the lives of the family they are not “performers” and will be exempt. To expect a family that is being “documented” to not go to any restaurant where alcohol is available because they are being documented is just ridiculous and would not be upheld, is my belief. This was a birthday party that was filmed in a restaurant where their parents were served a glass of wine. I hardly think they were performing, let alone for hordes of drunk people.
TLC did hire big guns for breach of contract, it is my belief that they probably have pretty solid legal counsel within who would have handled the day to day running of the network. The way litigation works is, it is very rare for inside counsel to litigate a case instead the corporation will bring in outside counsel who specializes in complex litigation. My guess is that is the case here. They have inside counsel who worked on the compliance aspect of the show, and when breach happened they brought in litigation counsel. I see nothing at all unusual about that. So no, it doesn’t strike me as odd, and I find it unlikely that their “legal minds” did nothing on the child labor aspect of this. There is NOTHING right now to prove that TLC has violated labor laws, any investigation has not come to a conclusion and having not seen or heard the evidence I can’t really speak to it.
As to the PA DOL investigation there is an investigation but in the end that doesn’t mean much. I don’t know that anyone has a “right to feel their concerns were ignored for what ever reason.” I’m not sure bloggers have a right to feel anything. The department of labor has a duty to stop child labor, I think it is unfair to say they turned their heads, when nothing has been proven as a violation. Honestly, I think GWOPpers are crazy, and their letter writing campaigns equally so. I guess I don’t really care if they “feel their concerns were ignored.” The DOL has a job to do, and unless there is a clear violation, DOL knew about it, and refused to act then maybe I’ll point fingers. As it is, I think your argument on this one loses.
Again with the permits that is the responsibility of the worker, just because TLC admitted that they had not obtained permits DOES NOT mean they are in violation of anything. That is going to come down to the Gosselins. If the Gosselins are in violation of child labor laws, why should the amount of the fines fall to TLC? Why should they pay for violations that weren’t theirs? I’m not understanding why the amount of the fines being too much for the Gosselins means anything.
As to payments, amount is not determined, and the children weren’t necessarily entitled to 1/10 of the amount of money. Again, there is too much unknown information to speculate. What was told/accounted to DOL isn’t known. How much was set aside isn’t known. And I think it IS too much to speculate that Kate started setting the money aside just because of a DOL investigation. To be honest, I think it is probably more likely that Kate saw the way Jon was spending money and how he was acting and decided to set money aside to make sure the kids would be guaranteed their money and their dad wouldn’t be able to run through it (I think they were controlling the money thinking they would dole it out according to what they thought was in the best interests of the children). I think this is backed up by the fact that in an interview Jon stated that he would ABSOLUTELY use the money set aside for the kids if they ran out of money.
A preliminary injunction merely stops Jon from talking to unapproved outlets. It does not, and will not, mean the kids are going to be filmed again. As to why Kate would let them watch the show but not the tabloids, most of the tabloids are things like “From Mom to Monster” and showing daddy’s latest whore. What they show on the show is hardly what shows up in the tabloids.
Now, I’ve answered your questions, but your entire post was set up in such a way to be rude and condescending. I think you are far from impartial, and are letting your feelings on the matter rule what you think and how you read and interpret things.
anya what other blog are you talking about? i only know of gwop.
erin kate, i pray you are feeling better soon. sorry you’re sick!
The other blog is the Gosselin Divorce blog, written by a divorce attorney, no wait! a complex litigation attorney, no wait!, etc. It annoys me. Thanks! I’m sure it was just a bug, but (TMI) I threw up in the car as I drove home from work and it got all over so I’m in a crappy mood.
To be honest, I think it is probably more likely that Kate saw the way Jon was spending money and how he was acting and decided to set money aside to make sure the kids would be guaranteed their money and their dad wouldn’t be able to run through it (I think they were controlling the money thinking they would dole it out according to what they thought was in the best interests of the children).
This is my impression as well, for some reason – money may have been set aside previously but Kate made an effort to set aside more when they split and she saw the lifestyle that Jon was leading. It’s so funny to me when critics harp about Kate’s Starbucks, tanning and manicure expenses; I doubt a year of those add up to one month of rent for Jon’s NYC place.
Thank you, Erin Kate. Hope you are feeling better.
Erin, thanks especially for responding to the PA Department of Labor investigation questions. Just because some people from out-of-state write to the DOL and tell them that young children are working on a “scripted” show, doesn’t mean “the state” ignored some grave injustice against her citizens.
Erin Kate, hope you are on the mend.
Jennie
I completely agree with your statement about Kate’s spending(tanning/nails/Starbucks) vs. Jon’s (apt. in NYC/sports cars/jewelry for girlfriends/dinners out and partying in NYC, the Hamptons, Utah, Vegas, France). Sure, some of those outings were “paid” work for Jon (and I use the term WORK lightly!) – but I’m sure they still cost him some CASH! As far as Kate – I know PLENTY of women who have a much,much smaller income than Kate who, no matter how tight money is in their household would NEVER miss their weekly nail appointment and tanning appointments! Plus, she’s going to a spa in PENNSYLVANIA not NYC or LA! (And I’m not knocking Pennsylvania in ANY way – I’m just saying that the word “SPA” in a big expensive city can mean big bucks and those in smaller areas are more reasonable) My point is, in the grand scheme of things those expenses are minor compared to what Jon is doling out! How can they even COMPARE to what Jon has spent? For goodness sakes I just don’t see what the big deal has been with her spa outings. Many moms, myself included have had the occasional mani/pedi/spa day and we don’t bring in nearly the money she does! It would take A LOT of mani/pedis to equal the cost of that stupid sports car he tools around in!
The DOL has a job to do, and unless there is a clear violation, DOL knew about it, and refused to act then maybe I’ll point fingers.
First off Erin if I was short or rude that was not my intention and I hope you are feeling better. I hate throwing up and usually do not get that sick. I cannot image feeling that bad and happen to be driving when that happens.
The facts remain there is an investigation as we speak and that has been ongoing. There must be some merit to initiate an investigation. It is logical to wonder just what triggered this investigation. The point in my original post was simply to show that based solely on the statutes, there either is no provision for children 7 or under working, or it is contained in a different statute. So if some people saw this filming happen and wrote out of genuine concern I would understand. If the DOL rules that these children could not be involved in “entertainment” due to age they would have a hard time IMO denying they knew filming was happening. If it were a case for stricker regulations regarding filming children under 7 again, how would the state not know they were filming a TV show, and not send out representatives to monitor the workplace? Not challenging you as I am sure you are busy but you have yet to qualify that issue.
The tabloids refer to Mady being denied water as the key to the investigation starting, but this event happened in New York, so that brings about another question. Do the minor labor laws for PA apply to these children no matter what state they film in, or are they required to follow the statutes for the states where filming takes place.
Also I pointed out above that while J&K are required to obtain work permits the employer must sign those. So did JKIG hire the children or were the children TLC employees, if they are considered as such. IMO it is the former and that corporation was formed to avoid having the children considered as employees of TLC. If TLC knew J&K had not obtained the proper permits to film why would they do so? That is another logical question I think. I am not a fan of either parent but I do feel that too much silly discussion about Kate is continuing. The show is over so that aspect of “exploitation” is over. In my opinion discussion of her body features and other nonsense is childish and I will not engage in those discussions.
As for the issue of fines I referenced above I feel TLC or the agents for J&K advised them to form a corporation for several reasons. One of those could have included using this corporation as a way to circumvent PA Labor Laws. I could see TLC working with Kate on a new show until spring and if her show does not do well, dropping her and leaving Jon (already being sued) and Kate in a DOL mess. This would be a disaster if each day of filming was considered a violation. The judge that ruled in favor of TLC over Jon has already stated this. If J&K were found to be the sole individuals at fault in a ruling from the DOL the fines could be finacially overwhelming.
Ann, then may I ask you, what triggered this investigation, has anything regarding filming changed? The grave injustices you mention could be several, and effect neither you nor I or any blogger for that matter. That does not minimize my right to an opinion and a voice if done fairly and with good intentions. The injustices that might be found, was that these children who did not have a voice over filming, were not protected by either parent, several family members, friends, PA DOL or TLC, in regards to filming. It could be that many irrational haters of J&K flooded the DOL officials to the point they refused to even consider their claims as valid. The die hard fans could have had the same effect as well, insisting the show continue. The DOL could have allowed J&K to continue to film because it benefited the PA economy, knowing laws were being broken, but turning a deaf ear. That would be a tragic injustice, so would TLC engaging in some type of pay off (highly unlikely). It could be that a reality show and its’ premise was not considered when these laws were enacted therefore they contain grey areas and J&K and TLC used loopholes in getting around filming.
If your point is that since these children live in PA, and should not be a concern to residents of another state, which I think is a hidden agenda of your message I ask you this. Since these children have been filmed in CA, HI, NC, PA, NY, UT, FL, SC, VA, ID just who has a right to have a concern?
If your point is that since these children live in PA, and should not be a concern to residents of another state, which I think is a hidden agenda of your message
Search for truth-
Did it ever occur to you that not everyone has a hidden agenda?
Search for truth (NC res),
I hope you don’t mind my copying/pasting the questions you ask and answering them one-by-one. I do so only to answer the questions, not to engage you in debate.
Ann, then may I ask you, what triggered this investigation, has anything regarding filming changed?
I don’t know what triggered the investigation, and I don’t know why you ask me that. Yes, something regarding filming has changed. They are no longer filming Jon & Kate + 8.
The grave injustices you mention could be several, and effect neither you nor I or any blogger for that matter. That does not minimize my right to an opinion and a voice if done fairly and with good intentions.
I agree we have a right to our opinions. I stand by mine that just because some one writes to the DOL, doesn’t mean the grave injustices happened. I do not know if you voice yours with good intentions. Since I and others have been the object of your nasty remarks and lies at other blogs/websites, I’ll remain suspicious. Also, the grave injustices may not affect bloggers, but the investigation affects me. I’m helping to pay for it. You are not.
The injustices that might be found, was that these children who did not have a voice over filming, were not protected by either parent, several family members, friends, PA DOL or TLC, in regards to filming. It could be that many irrational haters of J&K flooded the DOL officials to the point they refused to even consider their claims as valid. The die hard fans could have had the same effect as well, insisting the show continue.
MIGHT being the operative word there. And then, the grave injustices MIGHT NOT exist. And I have defended the good people who work for the Commonwealth of PA, and you have raised suspicions. Two opinions. Both valid. I am happy with mine. The die hard fans didn’t have a letter-writing campaign to insist that the DOL keep the show on the air. TLC made the decision to stop filming, not the DOL.
The DOL could have allowed J&K to continue to film because it benefited the PA economy, knowing laws were being broken, but turning a deaf ear.
So you finally admit that the show was good for the local economy? I’m glad to read it! I think it must be a year since we had that debate at GDNNOP. Have you read what Jon Gosselin said to Samantha about the blog? He and Kate used to read it all the time. I wonder if they had a good laugh at us debating that side of beef? As for this theory that the DOL ignored the plight of little kids because an organic beef farmer and an amusement park got more business? I think it’s a leap. I wouldn’t be so quick to point fingers, as Erin already said.
That would be a tragic injustice, so would TLC engaging in some type of pay off (highly unlikely).
What would be a tragic injustice? What? Filming? I ask to point out that even if they got more permits than legally required, they still would have filmed this show.
It could be that a reality show and its’ premise was not considered when these laws were enacted therefore they contain grey areas and J&K and TLC used loopholes in getting around filming.
Or it could be that a reality show and its’ premise was not considered when these laws were enacted therefore they contain grey areas, so there is no violation of the grey areas.
If your point is that since these children live in PA, and should not be a concern to residents of another state, which I think is a hidden agenda of your message I ask you this. Since these children have been filmed in CA, HI, NC, PA, NY, UT, FL, SC, VA, ID just who has a right to have a concern?
Nope, that wasn’t my point. My point is if you want this investigation, put your money (not mine) where your mouth is. As I pointed out above, I’m paying for the investigation. You are not. Why not? Why isn’t there a tip jar on someone’s website or a PO box somewhere so that these concerned citizen’s of other states can contribute money to the PA investigation? Why aren’t there investigations in NC, NY, and CA? Hmmm?
Thanks, Samantha. I appreciate your comment.
Search for truth,
Your form is what all lawyers do on cross examination (I’ve done it myself). We phrase things in such a way as to catch someone saying something that no matter how innocent sounds incriminating. We do it through leading questions (Isn’t it true? And if my former statement is correct then wouldn’t you agree. . .). You and I have a fundamental disagreement. An investigation does not mean that anything is wrong. Here is the thing, if any agency gets enough complaints they are going to start an investigation, and those investigations (even when found baseless) are still lengthy. Back in June I swore out a complaint against a fellow attorney for harassment with the Supreme Court. It was only this month that the investigation was dismissed and no charges were brought. They have to sift through a lot of information before a determination or charge can be made. My experience is mostly with school agencies and with child protective agencies (90% of my practice is in abuse, neglect, and dependency) but it is a pretty good rule of thumb that just because there is an investigation there is not a violation. It could be that DOL comes back and says there is not enough to charge, it could be that the DOL comes back and says no violation. I can’t say, I don’t have all the facts. What I can say is having been involved in numerous agency investigations (as an attorney and as the person calling for the investigation), they are long and just because you ask for an investigation absolutely does not mean there has been a violation. If there has been a violation and Jon and Kate are responsible for that violation, I’m a bit on the heartless side so I’d say tough luck that the fines are so extensive–they shouldn’t have broken the law. However, that being said I highly doubt that will happen.
As to forming the corporation to get around child labor laws, I see no evidence of that right now. It could be that evidence will come out later, but right now we have no proof. I’ve stated before that I do not do business law, but it is pretty common to form a corporation as a form of asset management and protection. I see nothing out of the ordinary simply because they formed a corporation.
Now, given the way you have treated us in the past I am hardly inclined to believe that you had no intention of sounding rude, or attempting to “catch” someone with an opinion contrary to yours. I’m sorry, but I still haven’t “seen the light.” I still believe that Jon broke his contract and he should be dealt with, I still believe that Kate is not abusing the kids, I still believe that there is not enough to say that either TLC or Jon and Kate have violated child labor laws. Though IW and its previous incarnation has treated you civilly at every turn, you have not afforded us the same courtesy. You were pretty tight with your piggy friends back at the pig pen. You’ll remember, no doubt, that everything we said was copied, pasted, and mocked and I was called a drug addict and a “so called lawyer.” So you’ll excuse me if I’m not ready to be friends.
If the DOL rules that these children could not be involved in “entertainment” due to age they would have a hard time IMO denying they knew filming was happening. If it were a case for stricker regulations regarding filming children under 7 again, how would the state not know they were filming a TV show, and not send out representatives to monitor the workplace?
State officials do not have the authority to “legislate” or change law. They may have the authority to develop regulations to comply with the intent of a legislated law. But the key is the intent of the law and the bureaucrats can not go beyond the intent of law. So even if people leveled complaints against TLC and/or the Gosselins because the kids were filmed in an establishment that services liquor, the DOL could not arbitrarily rule that was what the legislature meant by “entertainment.” There would have to be some indication that intent expressed during debate surrounding the legislation went beyond the scope of entertaining patrons of the establishment during the period of time they are drinking in the establishment to using footage of minors weeks to months later. shot while they were in the company of family members .
As for stricker laws for filming children under 7, I don’t see that PA has those stricker laws in place. Again the DOL can’t create rules just because they have received complaints. And even if they could create “regulations” to enforce the laws, they can’t apply them retroactively.
The injustices that might be found, was that these children who did not have a voice over filming, were not protected by either parent, several family members, friends, PA DOL or TLC, in regards to filming.
Children in our society do not have voice over many things that effect them. They have no voice over where their parents choose to live, how their parents choose to educate them, or how their parents choose to support them. Whether you agree with someone’s parenting decisions or not, how much control over a childs life do you want the government to take from parents?
I understand that some people feel that the filming harmed the children. What proof of that has been established? I see children that are imaginative, playful, precious. They live in a nice home, are well fed, clearly get medical care regularly, and go to and excellent school. They even sass their parents which honestly is an indication that they are not fearful of either parent. (There is alot more to worry about when a child is afraid to call Mommy mean then when a child feels safe to do so.) But even if we assume they children have been harmed, does it rise to the level that the government should intervene and who gets to decide? I might feel that home schooling or not vaccinating children harms them but I do not want the government to take control from parents to make those decisions for their children.
At this point, I think that laws and regulations about the filming of children on reality TV need to be debated in the legislatures (if there really is concern about child protection that goes beyond the Gosselin kids since I hear nothing about protecting the Duggars, hayes, Roloffs, etc.). I do not want government agencies making decisions behind closed doors that take authority away from parents.
Amen, Paige! Amen!
Thanks for the laugh upthread. And, let me hand it to you my friend…kudos to your patience.
Long day!
My note above was for Ann.
The Gosselins are not being filmed anymore, so what difference does it make whether or not they had the right papers filled out? It’s not going to change what has already happened, the “damage” has been done. Why aren’t the advocates focusing on the families Paige mentioned,
(as well as the sextuplets whose last name I can’t remember, on the WE network)? Where are Jo/Ke and Gloria Allred now? Don’t all those other kids deserve their protection? Oh right, they have “nice” parents, so they’re okay.
I read an article about Nadya Suleman. She and the kids are filming a reality show, because she says it’s the only way she can support them. It’s in California, so the babies can only be filmed one hour per day, and the older kids, for 3-6 hours depending on age and whether they’re in school. And they have a child-welfare worker on set. But, they’re still filming a reality show.
Hi fives to Erin Kate and Ann!
If people think Evil (Mwa-Ha-Ha) Kate is bad, they probably would’ve snatched me out’ve my house years ago. I’m from a family of 7 girls, including high-order multiples, and we were (gasp!) denied water from time to time. We even got spanked! (Well, not me, because I was the good one
) Now, who wants to contribute to the Save Jasmin College Fund?
Jasmin, only the Gosselins! They are the only and worst abused children ever, don’t you know? Actually, 7 sisters–if I had a spare dime I’d send it to you because I think that is abuse much more than spanking. I have no sisters and three brothers and while I feel like I may have missed something in sisterly-ness, I hear sister stories from my best friend and they scare me. I think I’ll stick with my brothers.
I understand that some people feel that the filming harmed the children. What proof of that has been established? I see children that are imaginative, playful, precious. They live in a nice home, are well fed, clearly get medical care regularly, and go to and excellent school. They even sass their parents which honestly is an indication that they are not fearful of either parent. (There is alot more to worry about when a child is afraid to call Mommy mean then when a child feels safe to do so.) But even if we assume they children have been harmed, does it rise to the level that the government should intervene and who gets to decide? I might feel that home schooling or not vaccinating children harms them but I do not want the government to take control from parents to make those decisions for their children. – Paige
Exceptionally well said. I wish I had something meaningful to add, but I am dead tired. Just wanted to say I agree 100% and especially want to highlight your point about the danger in letting the government (or any third party) take too much parental control away.
Now, who wants to contribute to the Save Jasmin College Fund? – Jasmin
LMAO! Thanks for adding a dose of reality to the discussion. Spanked and denied water and look how well you have turned out.
As for the college fund, I guess we could add a tip jar to the site….
Working my way up through the comments.
As for the college fund, I guess we could add a tip jar to the site….
Is there some sort of double standard in the blog world? Other sites, pro-Gosselin, use Amazon and Goodle ads to generate operating income. Why do they never come under question? Has anyone ever asked how much income these pro sites generate? How much does the Gosselin fan blog take in over and above the operating costs. Is any money seen as profit? So Anya is it the principle of collecting that keeps you snarking and kicking this issue or maybe your issue is the person and the message?
If people think Evil (Mwa-Ha-Ha) Kate is bad
Jasmine my original question to Erin was about the labor laws in PA. People Magazine people.com/people/article/0,,20281956,00.html reported this as well as Radar Online. Radar however reported that the interview (no water for Mady) footage triggered the investigation, that was all. Never did I say Kate was terrible for that, period. BTW we had corporal punishment in during my school days as well so we were spanked if we acted out.
But, they’re still filming a reality show.
Kiki, you have also pointed out that CA has very strict regulations and rules in doing so. So this reality show is being filmed under extreme scrutiny. The PA DOL was asked if children under age 7 could even be filmed according to the laws in place, according to what I have read. Never once did the people asking receive a response to a simple question. In fact even up until the last filming date J&K had never obtained the necessary paperwork required to do filming if that was a legal option. Now PA is investigating this family, my question is very simply, why now. My opinion is that due to the tremendous media coverage, over the past few months, the state feels the pressure. This pressure is from media people questioning the legalities of filming, and the aspect of child exploitation. Last week in his ruling against Jon by the presiding judge, TLC acknowledged that permits were never obtained. They also put that responsibility on J&K for lack of doing so. Finally the judge stated that each day of filming could be seen as a separate violation as MD law was the same as PA. I also tried to ask Erin if when these children travel from state to state which laws apply. Is a work permit in PA valid for NC. Which state laws have jurisdiction?
What proof of that has been established?
I have never stated the children have been abused or damaged Paige, and I certainly hope they have not. I do feel J&K, and TLC used these children as a way to support them and bring in millions to TLC and Discovery. Jon has said so. I do question why Kate continues to keep putting out the message of filming the kids, and how badly they miss filming, they cried, things like that. I do think that based on other childhood actors the Gosselins could or may have a difficult time. Many of these child stars have a tough time later in life. If filming the children for profit is exploitation, it is what it is. They however, are not alone on the TLC lineup. Paige, I agree with alot of your post. The issue I was addressing was regarding the laws that exist in PA about minor labor. Presently many states have laws that demand children of a certain weight or height or age to be in car seat, or passengers in a seat belt. We have laws regarding minimum pay, hours working conditions. The question here should be very simple for PA. Can children under 7 be involved in filming a reality series. If the laws allow for that to happen what paperwork is required if any. Did J&K obtain such paperwork, we know that answer already is no. lancasterlawblog.com/2009/06/articles/legal-tidbits/child-labor-laws-and-jon-kate-plus-8/Interesting read.
You’ll remember, no doubt, that everything we said was copied, pasted, and mocked and I was called a drug addict and a “so called lawyer.”
Erin do you read the Princess boards, at least I think I have seen references to that? In fact how many here read that board, what about latest blog by Iwhyawli. The first board does what exactly. It amazingly enough, copies and pastes comments from GWOP. I have seen this board applauded by some posters here. Many think that it is funny, even down right hilarious. You do realize that board has admitted to posting crazy comments on GWOP to see what reaction it gets. So are they adding fuel to the fire, IMO it seems they are. The later blog is much of the same with a much more vulgar twist. In fact I was shocked to see some of the same names that posted here, have posted there. Now which is snark and which is mean? Again I think it is based on perspective and the lines are drawn on whether or not you like or dislike J&K and even more recently, Kate. Pray tell, how can one be funny, the other mean if they both operate the same way?
Just for the record I never added to those comments about you, period. Honestly, I think I would not have said that about myself but, I still feel that comments about you on that issue and the pictures posted of Lizabeth’s relative were off limits, period. I said so and think my comments helped get the pictures removed.
NC–I thought way back when you said you were never going to talk to us again. I have called people out for being untruthful, I have stated that I think GWOP is crazy for their stance on the Gosselins, I have mocked ridiculous Gosselin crap, but I will not mock someone’s personal demons. I don’t particularly like anything Dirty Disher writes, I think she is vulgar and I don’t worship her stories like her faithful readers, but having read her site I would not mock her bad relationship with her mother, the death of her son, or her recent health problems. I think that is poor form and out of line. Not to mention I think it is very brave (no matter what I think of anyone) to put things out there that are painful in an effort, I suppose, to feel better about what is happening and to help someone else through similar things. Now, nothing on the internet is sacred and I know that. However, I’ll reiterate that I’m not about to play nice with you since you were personally part of that bashing. (Just as an aside, I find it hilarious that you didn’t even deny it.) I’ll point out that you, while reading GDNNOP and conversing with us, would then run over to the pig blog and and get down in the mud. Also, I’ve called others out on this so I’ll do it to you too. I think it is cowardly to go to a site on which you are known, and rename yourself in order to troll. When I go to other sites I use my name. At least be man enough to sign your posts.
Erin Kate-
You said it much better than I could.
NC,
It is ridiculously brazen of you to walk in here like you own the joint and engage (or is it provoke?) Us in a Gosselin debate with your thinly veiled accusations and rants. Did you really think you would be welcomed with open arms? As one of your fave blog owners used to point out at every turn- your comments are posted only bc we allow them to be.
You willfully misunderstand my point, NC Res about the tip jar. I have not objected to anyone making money on the Internet. What do I care? I want to know why those of you who see grave injustices against the Gosselin kids won’t fund or even help fund the investigation yourselves. Or you could be a good NC citizen and demand your tax dollars be wasted on investigating the well-being of eight healthy, happy children with parents who clearly love, educate, and care for them. I don’t actually expect you to answer the point I make. You’d better avoid it again.
I applaud the Princess boards for their insight and wit. They are funny, even downright hilarious. I don’t, however, expect the Gwop mods to receive them kindly. Why would you expect us to welcome your nearly 1000-word comments and questions after the nasty things you wrote about our posters and moderators? I told you once, “Keep searching.” I want to amend that to, “Keep searching, elsewhere.”
Search for truth,
(I’m going to assume that you were addressing me, even though my name is not “Jasmine”
)
I wasn’t referring to you specifically when I said “people”. My disbelief (and snark) is borne out of the fact that people hear “Mady denied water = investigation” and actually think that’s logical. Plenty of the kids I grew up with probably would’ve been snatched from their parents if people were half as interested in them as they are in the Gosselins–hell, I have no kids, but I know all of that whining/crying/screaming would turn me into the “World’s Meanest Mommy” real quick…lol Kate is easy on them!
PS. I’m slow on the uptake, but who is this NC person?
Jasmin, back when you were Big Sis88, Search For Truth was NC res on GDNNOP. Everyone was respectful in their conversation while he would go on and on and on in this fashion because he’s only searching for a way to make the answers fit what he wants to be true. Then he was bad-mouthing GDNNOP at another blog. He has continued to say very unkind things and whined and lied forever about how badly he was treated. He’s a drag and downer. He can go on like this for days.
It’s almost time for you to head home isn’t it? Travel safe, I bet your sisters can’t wait to see you.
Jasmin,
He used “NC Resident” at GDNNOP. He used “Search for Truth” at the hate-Kate blogs. “Search” was originally used to disguise his GDNNOP-bashing elsewhere. We noticed it, I asked him about it, he was reluctant to confirm it, had a hissy fit, made his own decision not to post at GDNNOP, and ended up blaming Pam for banning him. Pam never banned him. He trashed Jennie and Theresa constantly, fought with Sue when she defended GDNNOP, defended the Gwop mods at the pig blog who mocked Erin Kate and others, lied about several of us, then bragged he’d never read here, much less comment here. He had nothing to do with getting family pictures taken down. He’s an immature, oversensitive drama queen/troll as far as I am concerned.
Ann and Lily,
Thanks for the recap! I forget how some people still hold onto Gosselin blog drama, even though the blog that spurred this website no longer exists!
I got back yesterday (Wednesday)! It was just a quick train ride home, though I am excited to go to San Francisco after Christmas!